I am saying that he is not playing within the system now. These last 2 years. And, even though he played within JVG and others systems where he was the focus, that style is not conducive to winning in the playoffs as he is not good enough to win that way. Of course they changed, but I am unclear are you saying that if he played within the system they would have been worse? I think they probably would have been better off if Tmac played within the system even with Yao out. As players that are involved in the offense play harder all over the court. It is human nature. I am perfectly objective, you just don't like what I am saying. I think the style of play under JVG was not conducive to winning in the playoffs, don't you recall all the "JVG must go" talk from me? It was precisely why I wanted him gone, I wanted more of a TEAM oriented game, as to me, Tmac was not good enough to win with a Tmac only style. Why? Because he is an inefficient player, he, nor the team score all that well with him dominating it, it makes the team easy to guard. I was curious because you basically were in favor of trading Yao and rebuilding and wondering if that was just your emotions or how you really felt? Personally, I am excited..... And, completely consistent.....Ron is not perfect but he is better than nothing and at least equal to Tmac.....of last year. DD
Cabbage nor you apparently have a depth of understanding of my arguments, and apparently don't agree. No, you are wrong...Artest and Tmac don't fit - which I said pre trade. Artest is a guy with a powerful personality which will hurt a harmonic clubhouse - which I said pre trade. Artest is a ball stopper and having Tmac AND Artest - 2 ball stoppers is a disaster for a team -which I said pre trade. All of which were proven true. Yeah, I get locked in, but the problem with the argument is when people try to call me on one, and are completely missing the point or trying to nail something down when in reality it is not an apples to apples comparison.... This argument about Ron and me wanting him gone for instance was COMPLETLY based upon Ron and Tmac not fitting together and having a relatively healthy TMac....well....now that the situation is changed, some people try to hold that over me as an argument I made that was incorrect, when the reality is that I am 100% correct about Ron, was before the trade, and am still now. See this is where I am not so sure, it has a lot of ifs attached. IF Tmac was at his peak If he was willing to play within the system If he was willing to play help defense If he was willing to move off the ball Too many ifs......even when healthy for me to agree with you. DD
You've been saying this whole thread that his 'ball stopping' 'style of play' has been responsible for the Rockets' failures during his tenure here. So you are saying JVG would have had better success if he ran Adelman's motion offense with that roster? Based on what? He carried his end of the bargain. In the Yao thread, you said that role players still have to step up and hit shots. So where were Tracy's role players in the playoffs? It wasn't the system because guys like Wesley, Sura, Barry etc. were scorching hot in the tail end of the regular season. You think maybe the heightened level of competition might have caught up with them a tad bit in the playoffs, rather than it being Tracy's fault? Ok, wow. We won 22 games in a row and closed out the second half of the season with maybe 5 or 6 total losses. You're seriously telling me there were circumstances that could have produced better results than that? With that roster? Seriously? You're almost comitting yourself to arguing that had Tracy 'played within the system' last year, we would have gone undefeated. That I do, but I also recall your sharp criticism of Adelman just a month back, as well as you wanting a disciplinarian in the last days of Rudy's era. So you have to forgive me when I get lost. I've asked you numerous times in this thread, what did you want exactly want those teams to do? Did you want the likes of Luther Head and David Wesley to create? I would certainly explore it this summer. Wow, now I'm just completely confused. So Ron Artest, the guy you didn't want all along, (but do want now because tracy is gone, did I get that right?), and who is a 'ball stopper' on the level of Tracy, in your own words, gambles too much on defense, and who you, in my thread asking the level of satisfaction with Ron's performance this year, replied that you were not satisfied, is at least equal to Tracy from last year? You said in my thread that you were not satisfied with Artest, but you think he could have had that same success last year in Tracy's place?
You just said earlier in the thread that regardless of his health/efficacy, you wouldn't take him because his style of play was not conducive to winning. So you would take him at his peak?
No Because he doesn't WANT or DESIRE to play within a system that he doesn't like, or feel suits his game. And I think this system is more important to winning in the playoffs for the Rockets than he is....and if he ain't part of the solution he is part of the problem. I would do what Badger suggests, trade him for a lessor player that fits in better with the overall team concept. DD
Yes, I believe that, and it is not a motion offense it is a read and react offense that requires movement. I don't think it was all on Tracy, but JVG designed a system to where he had the ball in his hands 100% of the time, that becomes VERY easy to guard in the playoffs. It is a system set up to fail. Stop being silly, I am not saying any such thing. And TMac began the streak playing within the system and it gradually returned to MeMac mode and by the playoffs it was recipe for failure (though I concede the team would not win without Yao anyway). Yes, and those are seperate issues, Adelman's system is seperate from Adelman the pushover coach. One does not equal the other. I want all of them to create for each other by setting picks, rolls, dribble drives, everyting (Not Luther per se), but the entire team MOVING off the ball. The offense being less stagnant, and less predictable. I would not, I think Yao is our best mismatch and player by a long shot, I would build around him. Stop being obtuse....you know perfectly well that I am saying Ron did not fit with Tracy, but now that Tracy is gone Ron fits BETTER....not perfect but better, and at about the same level as Tracy fit last year. I am not surprised, you and I see things completely differently. My view has been molded by my life's experience in playing and coaching sports, and running companies and teams. It skews the way I view the game and the players. I have no loyalty to any player, only the team. I would manage this team and roster completly differently than you would. For the record, I am not saying you are wrong, and I am right, it is just I view it differently.......I do THINK I am right, but that doesn't make it so. DD
This season you can say that but his injury can explain a lot of his poor play on both ends of the court. So your argument is not that valid over his tenure as a Rocket. It is funny that he's a me first player while he led the team in assists in various games thereby setting others up. Now if you have an open jumper and you're passed the ball and miss the shot then all the work by the player who gave you the pass was for nothing. You can pretty much call that the tenure of Tracy here with the Rockets. As many plays that he has set up for others over his tenure he should have had higher assists numbers. Most of what you and many of the others say here puzzles me. No matter what you say, this team, if they make any noise in the playoffs, will be in the role of overachievers. Ron and Yao have to do their thing but if the others play like they did last year in the playoffs we are still done!! We will only go as far as the success of our role players. Not Yao, Ron or Scola, I consider them the main course but without the sides (our role players) we don't have a meal!!! As much as people what to say the ball moves more, I still see a lot of standing around by these same players without Tracy. Hating or disliking Tracy is one thing but you have to move beyond this constant scapegoating that happens here. The guy was hurt and when he wasn't hurt many of you still didn't like his game even when he played well. Everyone on here knows who those people are. I expect that no matter the outcome of this Team people will still blame or belittle Tracy in some form or fashion, it actually says a lot about them. Also, wasn't Adelman brought in to maximize Tracy's talents? That's what I thought... There's too much negativity on this board. And it usually followed by some lame declaration of how much of a fan you are of the team. This team should make the playoffs and with everything that has happened I can be cool with that. Do I want more? Yes, but I am being realistic here. When the season is over then we can say whether or not this team is better with or without Tracy. Until then, I think WE should ALL slow down on that bold assessment.
Yeah... don't get carried away there. Wait until you see them play against a lock-down defense and the best playmaker we have on the court is AB.
AB and Lowry, and Barry, but honestly in a read and react offense anyone can be a playmaker.... That is the beauty of it. Either way, this thread is dead, all opinion, no conclusion, all rendered moot by tomorrow's surgery. The only thing to wish for is for Tmac to get healthy and the Rockets to do well... /thread DD
The reality is that this magical 'everyone gets to pass, everyone gets to score, everyone gets to do everything!' offense disappears when you play a team with great players. When defenses clamp down you get things like C-Webb 3 pointers. It will happen, it always does. Anytime you play a great team, with competent coaching they can shut down role players and it comes down to your best playmakers creating opportunites for everyone else. That's what Kobe does, that's what Chauncey did, what Pierce did, and what Wade did. I know it's hard for some to fathom but the NBA is the only level where A great player can change the course of a game and destroy A great team. When you coach kids, this doesn't show up, the best team always wins. When you're in college, the best team always wins...but not in the NBA, it's not the same. A great defense can clamp down and eventually it'll turn into who can win a one-on-one matchup, ENTER great playmaker.
Yes, you have to have a player that can break down a defense one on one...we have Lowry and Brooks for that. DD
I have been echoing similar sentiments in that "Yall are crazy if..." thread. People seem to be too bitter and stubborn to realize the nature of the playoffs changes everything. That everything becomes increasingly difficult, shots are harder to make, one-trick-pony's are exposed worse than ever. I mean, here were are expressing confidence in a guy like Von Wafer being in a our 8-man rotation after watching a similar one-trick-pony like Luther Head kill us in the playoffs the past two years. Have people really forgotten how bad our bench was last year in the playoffs? Landry was the only highlight from that group. Brooks, B-Jax and those guys were all hit-or-miss. Now Brooks is the starter and B-Jax is gone. Point being: if you can get McGrady to buy into this bench role and team basketball concept the difference between Wafer and McGrady playing 20 minutes off the bench is night and day. Would McGrady go for this? Probably not but then again management holds ALL the leverage in this matter. If he wants to play he'll have to sacrifice. I'm not guaranteeing it will work or that it's even likely to take place. All i'm saying is I don't think people should be so quick to close the door on the idea.
As a short aside to this conversation, I just want to diffuse this ... many think having high assist numbers equals unselfish player, but that is not true. 1) as stated in a great thread before - Stephon Marbury gets the stats (assists included) but is as me-oriented as they ever get (as an extreme example). 2) Morey, in the "No Stats All-Star" article says basically every statistic in the box score can tell you the wrong story, and how everything basketball is such a game where statistics dispose people to selfish behavior to the detriment of the overall team good. Assists is included in this category as well. Hopefully this confusion will generally be clarified on this board in the future. Carry on ....
JVG disagrees with you. T-mac is very unselfish. It's not a wonder that he leads the Rockets in assists the past few years. So much for "me" ball. Problem with t-mac is that he is a bit of a p-word, and can't play hurt. That's always been the case - knee, back, whatever. He's somewhat of a psychological mess, and he has his issues for sure...but this evaluation you make of him isn't true. YOu judge the man while he is down.... Personally, I will let the guy have a chance, he's now the underdog. He's counted out, he's taken a bad blow, and this is his worst season ever. Both his body and his ego are a wreck. The test of a man is how he responds to adversity - not in the short term, but the long term. Let's see what emerges from this mess. Perhaps nothing ever will. But while you can't hold judgement, others will and root for the guy to come back. As for him not playing team ball....let's see what happens when he comes back to a team that doesn't necessarily need him to bail them out. That change may work wonders. Look at what happened last year
Hakeem did good and he didn't have any other superstars, before Clyde. It was just Hakeem, outlet passes, and 3pters.
Yea, as of right now, I like this team without T-Mac. I just hope that the surgery won't be the end of him.
