I agree with jopatmc, the only way we add miles to the team is to get rid of juwan. If an owner is not willing to go over the tax you can not have two max players and keep adding salary. Also, thats why you have to keep the pick this year. #8 should return some talent at a reasonable price tag. Juwan straight up for miles wouldnt kill us cuz the cap wont be too affected. And for the rox to be successful next year, juwan cant play a ton of minutes like this year. Forget about Randolph, the rox would be better off focusing on a hustle player who has some skills and makes much less, like Battier, although Memphis wont give him up.
Did you look at that site at all. It does have all the game film that you're talking about. And I already said that you have to actually look at footage along with the numbers. 36% spotting up does not mean 36% spot up shooter. And who said anything about starting at 2 guard. Now this is just faulty logic. Supporting Miles, not because he's any good but because Howard isn't. First off, who's to say that Howard can be traded for Miles. We don't really know what Miles' trade value is, while Isiah is in the league. And secondly you make the assumption that playing Miles can't possibly be worse than sitting Juwan. Because that's what it comes down to. Contract-wise Miles' deal is decidedly worse than juwan's. It's longer and more per year. Basically you have to consider if Miles is going to be better than all the other guys we could bring in through free agency, the draft, and other trades. Because if he's not able to get meaningful minutes, then it's completely not worth doing the trade. And think about the chances of Miles getting into JVG's doghouse ala Mo Taylor. That has got to be a 50/50 proposition at worst. Then how great will that trade look. Not every "asset" needs to be converted into something. You say that Juwan is a negative drain on the team. Fine. Then put him on the bench and move the roster along without him. Or come up with a buyout deal. Or wait a couple of years until his contract becomes an expiring chit. But to trade him for a guy that would easily blow up in our faces and who has an even larger and longer contract would be much worse than standing pat.
m_cable, Carter was not any good in Toronto. Rasheed was absolutely horrible in Portland. Tim Thomas was not any good in Milwaukee, NY, or Chicago. That's one point. Yes, I have looked at the site several weeks ago, and then I looked to verify these numbers in this discussion with you. It's a good site. I like it. Dude, it verifies that Travis can't shoot last year or the previous two years. He's going to have to put in a lot of work just to be adequate. 40% from the floor is not good enough. Dude, he's 36% spotting up from the field. Do you really want that starting the game and playing 30 minutes a night alongside Yao and Tracy??? And Juwan is not an asset, not even close. Doghouse? Think about Outlaw getting in Van Gundy's doghouse. No one player has the market cornered there. No, you don't have to consider if Miles is going to be better than players you would bring in through free agency. Because the players you bring in through free agency are STILL going to be the players you bring in through free agency. I am proposing a Miles Howard deal basically. Not a Miles or free agent deal. We are gonna get what free agents we are going to get.....period. What you have to consider is whether you want to take a chance on Miles or stay with Juwan. You are throwing Miles in my face like I favor him over Outlaw or any other shooting guards. While I do favor him over Outlaw simply because I would not want to part with our #8 pick for Outlaw, that is not the case with every player. I'd be all over a deal for Mo Pete....if we could make it. What I am in favor of is moving Juwan for somebody/somebodies. Juwan has about as much negative trade value as Miles does at this time and we may be able to sell the deal to Portland if NOBODY else wants him or all they want to give Portland is expiring deals of other players that don't fit. And Darius does have Dennis Rodman like potential to be a wrecking house on the floor, if given the right coaching, strong team leadership, and his desire is really to help a team win a championship. Rodman tore up San Antonio and Laker Town, even wore out his welcome in Detroit and Chicago. But, he was a monster on the court, who was a significant component of those championship teams because of his unique skills. I'm not saying throw away the #8 for Miles. I wouldn't do that straight up. I'm not saying he is necessarily the best 3rd option we could come up with. Although, he does have the POTENTIAL to be a tremendous 3rd option if his head was screwed on right. But you have to look at the overall picture. All I can say is, if you wouldn't move Juwan for Miles straight up, we are on different wavelengths. Miles downside is in view, we know where it is, we know what it is. So, it would not be a surprise. We also know what Juwan gives us on the floor. Now, pray tell me, what can we move Juwan for that is going to be any better? Expirings?? Nope. Who is going to want to move expiring deals for Juwan Howard? Not even Zeke is that dumb. The extra year on Miles deal is nothing. We are over the salary cap and cannot build the team by getting under the cap. We will be over the cap for the next 6-10 years. We might as well trade a player with a long deal that is not going to get better for the opportunity to get a player that MAY get better. 1. Outlaw is not the answer to our starting SG problem. 2. Howard is not the answer to our starting PF problem. 3. Miles may not be the answer but he still has plenty of upside and not much further downside. He could become the answer or part of the answer. 4. At the very least we get Howard off the floor in favor of anybody else, which is an improvement. 5. We still have all our options through free agency plus our draft picks, and Stro Swift to make another deal for a starting PF or SG.
I know we need an athletic wing and a guard, but if the Rockets can get Randolph and, say, a first round draft pick or another player for him with the #8 pick I would seriously consider doing it. The #8 and Howard for Randolph, a player and another of their first round picks would be unbelievable, especially if it's a guard or wing player.
Yes we are on different wavelengths. Miles' downside is that he flames out once again, gets in JVG's doghouse which plummets his value right next to Juwan's, except that he makes more for longer. His upside isn't so great either, considering that he can't shoot, and has no offensive game outside of one face up move where he fakes to the left and drives right in order to put up a shot in the lane. He could be an excellent defender if he could get his head on straight, but even then he's only a marginal upgrade (if that) over defensive specialists like Quinton Ross, Adrian Griffin, Greg Buckner, Jared Jeffries, Trenton Hassell etc. All making less than Miles and who haven't been accused of coming to practices drunk. Who says that we have to get anything for Juwan. Let him sit on the bench for three years. It beats sitting Miles on the bench for the next four years, or putting him on the court where he messes up the offense by not being able to be effective without the ball in his hands. Or where his defensive contribution is hardly better than guys that can be picked up at a dime a dozen (Ross, Buckner, Griffin etc). P.S. You obviously aren't listening to anything I'm saying because, I've never said we should in any way put Outlaw at our SG position, and the site doesn't say that the Spotting Up category is in anyway the same as Spot up Shooting. I've said it twice already, but you keep on misinterpreting that stat.
Rox need to stay away from both Randolph and Miles. Just found out how much money each one is due and neither is worth even close to what they are locked in for. Player 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 Zach Randolph $12 mil $13.3 mil $14.66 mil $16 mil $17 mil Darius Miles $7.25 $7.75 $8.25 $9 $9 There is much better value available out there for that money and without the headaches that both guys bring.
Ugh. What is the spotting up category then? Layups? ".....................plummets his value right next to Juwan's.........." Sounds like an admission of true values. In other words, Miles' value is higher than Juwan's right now. (I don't think that is true myself.) I'll take any of the guys you mentioned in a heartbeat for a trade involving Juwan. Do you think it could be done? Can we get Washington to do a S&T involving Jeffries for Howard?? What is more realistic, one of these guys in a trade with somebody else for Juwan, because I sure hope we don't pay $6 million for Buckner or AG by themselves. Or is a Juwan Miles deal more realistic? You want to use the MLE and tie it up on marginally one sided players like that though, when we need to get a starting SG. You have no suggestions on getting anything for Juwan. Your answer is simply to let him rot on the bench. The problem is your suggestion is the least likely to happen if we KEEP Juwan. Van Gundy will run him out there because we had to use our assets to fill our holes on the perimeter with shooters. I say let him try his hand somewheres else and let us try someone else here. Your thought is to be happy with junk and somehow you have fooled yourself that Juwan if he is on this team next year, will be riding the pine and not getting minutes. Go ahead and fool yourself. My thought is to attempt to turn junk into something of value. If my idea fails, we've still got junk, just like you want us to keep and hope that Van Gundy keeps them on the bench. But if my idea succeeds it is 1000 times better than your idea. My idea has upside possibility. Yours has nothing but downside reality. What are your ideas on getting a starting SG and a 3rd scoring option since now you are claiming Outlaw isn't it??? Jared Jeffries and Greg Buckner??? Or just trust Carney and run him out there with Howard at the 4?
Why don't you actually read what they're breaking it down into and watch the footage that they're talking about. Well if you go by my original trade idea in this thread, it was to facilitate a three way deal with NY and Portland that nets us Outlaw, David Lee, and the #20 pick for our #8. After that we can trade up with our #20 and #32 to land Maurice Ager. Then we sign Mike James in free agency. If James won't come, then give $3 million of our MLE to Rasaul Butler and either save the rest for emergency signing or bring over V-span for $2 mill, or possibly Qyntel Woods. We can mix and match a guard rotation of: James Alston Head Ager With a forward group of: Tracy Outlaw Lee Swift Hayes And have Yao and Stro taking most of the center minutes. If not James then the guard rotation will be: Alston Head Butler Ager V-Span (maybe) We'd have a young, quick, athletic lineup with a lot of multi-skilled guards and swingmen which is exactly where the league appears to be going. If we don't do this Portland trade, and decide to stay pat #8, then we pray that Gay or Roy fall to us. If not, then we just draft Carney, and either Novak or the best swingman avaliable (Hassan Adams, James White, Shawne Williams etc.) in the second round. Any one of those guys could develop into a defensive specialist (Pretty much all the defensive guys that I mentioned in my last post were either 2nd rounders or undrafted). Then follow the same free agency plan. Either James for the full MLE or split it with guys like Rasaul Butler, Qyntel Woods, or V-Span. Guard rotation of: James Alston Head Carney Forward rotation of: Tracy Swift Novak / White / Adams / Williams Hayes Or a guard rotation without James: Alston Head Carney Butler V-span Neither of these lineups are finished products. They still have holes and do rely on young players panning out or continuing to improve. But considering what we have to work with, I think it's a good plan. And the bottom line of this discussion is that I'd much rather just sit Juwan, make moves around him, than take on Miles' who would be a terrible fit offensively and grossly overpaid defensively.
Bottom line: something needs to change at PF this off-season...... Howard as a starter simply isn't good enough anymore. We all know this, the problem is what do you do with a player making so much money like that on the downside of his career? You have three options: 1. Trade him for somebody with an equally as bad contract and/or situation with their team. 2. Move him to the bench and try to make him some form of instant-offense in the frontcourt. Perhaps our version of Jerry Stackhouse in the "old former #1 option bringing offense off the bench towards the end of his career". Its an option that doesn't appear logical at all since JVG has given no indication of having any form or trust in Swift. Swift could barely crack 15 minutes a night when the playoffs were out of reach, that really says something about his future with this team. 3. Bite the bullet and let him rot away on the bench making $6-7 million a year to do nothing. An option that doesn't appear to be very realistic considering JVG loves Howard so much. Also, if this were the case it would make even more sense just to flat-out cut him---again, another option that doesn't appear to be very plausible. So where does this leave us? In my opinion, it looks like we're either stuck with him as our starter or we will go the route of option #1 and try to trade for players in similar situations.
Option number 2 is the best bet. I actually have no problem with Juwan coming off the bench. The reason Dampier's production off the bench is better is because he is better than other bench caliber centers-but he simply isn't good enough to start. Juwan could have the same effect, he would be an advantage off the bench. It's simply too much money to waste, and he can still put some points on the board and grab some rebounds effectively. I think he's a solid option as our second PF. Obviously this leaves us with no starting caliber PF, and it looks like Stro might not be our guy. Best bet is to package him somehow and solidify that frontcourt. I just can't see a team taking Juwan on, unless we take back a younger version of him (overpaid, giant contract having, underperforming PF like Zach Randolph) Seems as though we are stuck with him, may as well make the most of it and let his contract come off the books.
Swift + Howard for Murphy + Cabarkapa Rocks Alston, Sura, * Head, *, * T-Mac, Bogans, Cabarkapa Murphy, Hayes, Rybo Yao, Deke, Lampe GSW Davis, Fisher, * J-Rich, Pietrus, * Dunleavy, * , * Biedrens, Howard, Diogu Foyle, Swift, Taft
So, we are going to trade the #8, and somehow wind up with Outlaw, Lee, and the #20 pick. What's the rest of the deal? Who are we sending the #8 pick to and what is the other team getting? I'm assuming you are sending out Juwan since you aren't including him in either roster rotation. Somebody else has to to go to bring in Lee and Outlaw. You can't just trade the pick. And Lee has been a deal breaker for teams all year. Now, you think he is going to be moved? I assume we're sending the Knicks the #8. So, the Knicks get #8 and Portland gets what? Pretty vague idea at the very best. But, it sure sounds good to assume you can trade for a highly thought of young player that their current team hasn't been willing to trade all season. And we come out of all that with Maurice Ager or Luther Head or Rasual Butler as our starting shooting guard to go along with Yao, McGrady, and somehow Swift is going to knock down the starting PF spot. Well, the one thing I would agree with is signing Mike James. I doubt if your 3 way trade proposal is feasible. I'd rather trade Juwan and Rybo or a re-signed Wesley to Portland for Miles. Draft Carney/Roy/Gay at #8. Then use the MLE on James. Then we've still got the TE plus Swift's contract as other tradable assets. That would give us a roster of James Alston Head Carney Head Miles Bogans/Frahm TMac Miles Yao Deke Swift Hayes Novak Miles
Um, my original trade proposal was upthread. You said So I assumed that you had actually read the deal that I was proposing: Rockets get: David Lee Travis Outlaw #20 pick from the Knicks Portland gets: #8 pick from the Rox Mo Taylor Malik Rose New York gets: Zach Randolph Darius Miles #31 second round pick from Portland Your suggestion isn't far off from my second scenario. Basically you have Miles instead of Juwan. My feeling is that Miles will in no way contribute enough to the team to make up for his extra year and higher salary than Juwan. He's a bad offensive player that will not mesh with this team. And his defensive attributes aren't that much better than a lot of guys in this league. If you think different then fine. No use arguing in circles around each other bringing up the same points over and over again.
Carney and Miles on the same team? I'm not so sure I like the sound of that. I agree it would be nice to get rid of Howard and I also happen to be a Carney fan that thinks he's probably our best and most realistic option at the #8 spot, but Carney and Miles have too many similarities to manning the same position. With Carney's shaky basketball IQ, comparable frame and athletic ability and relatively limited offensive ability he has to remind you a bit of Miles. Carney can actually shoot with NBA 3-pt range and also doesn't carry the unnecessary baggage Miles does, but other than that I think its a fair argument to make they are very similar, in which case you have to question whether you want two players like that on the same team.
I'm not sold on Carney by a long shot. It's just that if we keep the pick, we're gonna have to get something and we need to take the player that is really a combination of BPA that fits our needs. I'm shaky on Carney. That's why I would be for a trade that would net us a definite 3rd option shooting guard like Mo Pete/Corey Maggette. I just don't want to give up the #8 pick without getting a for sure 3rd option at the SG spot.
I like some of your trade scenarios, but I really think that the #8 pick has tremendous value in this draft and I am all for keeping it. If Marcus Williams and Patrick O'Bryant are taken before the Rockets pick, their will probably be a darn good chance that Brandon Roy or Adam Morrison fall into the rockets lap and either one of those guys would bring a ton of firepower to this team.
As much as I want it to happen, I don't think Roy or Morrison fall this low. I've read a couple things that McMillan likes Roy a lot and could be their pick at #4. As for Morrison, I could see Charlotte taking him at #3 and maybe the Blazers at #4 (instead of Roy). As for a trade w/ the Blazers, I really don't want anyone on their team. Miles is garbage as far as I'm concerned, I don't want a cancer on the team unless he can shoot the ball. Only player I am remotely interested in is Telfair, and he isn't all that great.
Unfortunately for us, if any of the big 6 (Morrison, Bargnani, Aldridge, Thomas, Roy, Gay) fall, it is most likely going to be Tyrus Thomas IMO.
I actually think I like Roy the most out of the group of Morrison, Gay, Carney and Roy as far as fitting our team the best and being able to contribute the most immediately. Gay and Carney because of their bodies have lots of potential but when I saw the Washington UConn game it looked to me like Brandon dominated his matchup with Gay. The thing is this team HAS to get a definitive 3rd option that is on the floor opening night with McGrady and Yao. So, to me this is the moment that is going to define both CD's and Van Gundy's Rocket careers. If they botch it, we are going to have a difficult building and competing with the Mavs, Suns, Clips, and the other up and comers in the West. If they do it right, we will put ourselves in a position to win a couple 3 championships. I don't think any of us have really seen enough footage on most of these kids to know really what is best. The only ones we have a clear handle on are players like J.J. Redick and Shelden Williams who spent so much time on national TV that we could pick up the nuances of their games at the highest level of competition. Carney worries me when I hear reports about Ager torching him in two on twos. It could be nothing or it could be an indicator of his low bball iq and lack of competitive fire. Same thing with Gay. Great athlete. Is he more than what he appeared to be at UConn? Did the system hold him back? Or is he lackadasical and into it mentally? Roy? Can he stand out at the next level? They've all got questions. All I know is we HAVE to get that 3rd option and that player has to be the 3rd best player on the team and be able to give us 20 on any given night and be efficient offensively without being a liability and giving it all back on the defensive end.
Agree with you about the 3rd option. Roy or Morrison could easily yield this team 15+ a night if JVG would give them some clock. Roy in my opinion is probably the most complete player when it comes to playing both sides of the ball in this draft. We need to pray to the draft gods that O'Bryant and Marcus Williams are selected before the rockets draft.
