[ESPN] Bush turned pro after assurance of No. 1 pick

Yeah, really. I understand the general context of what you are arguing about but in this case I read one post.

It can't work both ways. Ive been told that since I wasn't following an entire thread that I should signify that and respond to a certain post. That's what I do in this case and there's still complaining? Seriously, some people are so sensitive about this it's incredible.

 

Great point. I've said it 100 times here if VY wasn't from UT we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Nobody even mentioned Leinart as a possible candidate because:

a)he didn't go to UT and b) we wouldn't even be discussing hte position if it wasn't for Young entering the draft.

Even as people saw Manning and Brady fold when their lines didn't protect them all of a sudden Carr is terrible and Young's the answer.

 

Actually, one guy here was all about drafting Leinhart a few months back. He was bashing Carr mercilessly back then. I'm not sure what side of the coin the guy currently is on.

 

And this is completely false. Lott, Corso, Herbstreit, Keith Jackson, Fouts--mix of NFL players and long time watchers with no Longhorn connections and most picking/routing for SC, all pretty much saying VY is the most impressive player they have seen in a long time. If VY was an Aggie or Sooner or Bruin or Seminol or Hokie and had the stretch of 20 games like VY had (yes a couple bad ones mixed in there, even the best have bad days) with the triumphant display in the Rose Bowl versus Bush/Leinart and Co most Texans fans would say whoa doggy we better rethink that Bush pick.

IMO there is a substantial pro-Bush anti-VY sentiment just because VY is from UT. Some of the reverse is true as well, sure. But it certainly cuts both ways, a LOT of Texans fans absolutely hate the Longhorns. Others have seen Bush ESPN top 10 and just assumed these plays will translate to the pros and thus have had their hearts set on him for a long time and refuse to consider alternatives. In their mind Reggie Bush is already a Texan and thinking anything different is too troubling.

VY went from nowhere on draft boards to top 7. Then top 4. Now top 3 on virtually all. Funny thing is the NFL season isn't even OVER and no individual evaluations/workouts on Bush or VY or Leinart have even been made to justify movement. Basically everyone is just guessing and the pre-Rose Bowl hype just lead to Bush being assumed as the #1 pick. Mock draft boards before individual evalutations are made are very poor educated guesses.

IF VY is indeed football stupid (3.9 GPA has almost no bearing on a RB) OR has a weak arm Bush or ML should go first. I have seen little to think VY is football stupid or has a hopeless arm.

I have said all along the Texans should thoroughly evaluate the top 6 players and evaluate all selection/trade options. I personally think in the end VY will prove to be the prospect with the highest potential. But I understand VY needs to be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb. IMO those who are so invested in Reggie Bush have had a much greater problem accepting the possibility, pending workouts, that VY is the best prospect in the draft and applying the same fine toothed comb to Bush.

 

It sounds like you're saying Casserly is the leaker. If that's so, type 1 for yes and 2 for no.

I've watched that movie dozens of times. I worked with Bob Woodward for 14 years. I never got so much as a hello from him. I think he was jealous of the fact that so many of the women in the newsroom had crushes on me.

Anyone else notice that his answer to this question had the number 14 in it, which contains the number '1'? I think Justice is trying to tell us that Casserly is the one leaking this info. I wonder what the reasoning for that could be, if true.

 

I wasn't around for that discussion. I'm for drafting Bush, not Leinart or Young. My opinion of Young has definitely changed after his performance in the Rose Bowl but I still wouldn't pick him. I thought Leinart would be a better pro then Vince (he still may there's no way to tell) but we don't need to draft a QB. Young played great, deserves his accolades, ect but he's not a need at the moment (especially being 2 years away).

 

Haha. Richard is foolish though. Whoever is leaking this information isn't doing it solo. They have some sort of plan.

 

You mean the same people who were saying Bush was the best running back ever up until the Rose Bowl? So basically we can chalk these guys opinions up to garbage right. They watch Bush have a few amazing games (Frenso especially) and some are saying he'd be the third best running back in the NFL right now behind LT and Alexander and then VY puts on a performance for the ages and now he's the best prospect ever? These are the same guys who annoited Clarett the next superstar after his game too. They flip flop all the time. If they really said what you are saying about Young then their credibility is shot right now.

I realize that it's coming from both ways here. There's a much stronger Young sentiment then Bush though (here). My question to a lot of people is if they really want Young because it makes the Texans better or they want him because he brought UT a National Championship and has the chance to be a great player and is a home grown kid. There are a lot of factors here that you have to look at.

A smart kid like Bush has a huge bearing on his position (being that he's already so naturally gifted). We already know that he picks up blitzes well and can play 4 positions on the field. USC didn't exactly have a basic offense. That means the kid can read a playbook and pick up adjustments in game. All I know is what i heard about Vince and so I'll leave it at that. I don't know if it's true or not.

Tons of players shoot up draft boards after huge games of big time workouts. Everyone knows that. Young wasn't even on a board because he had said he was returning to school. Bush leapfrogged Leinart towards the end of the season. When it's all said and done, I think all three will grade out as great prospects. I think Bush will be the best and I certainly think he is the best choice for the texans. Is your love for Young so strong that you are honestly willing to get rid of carr for nothing? What if Young doesn't pan out?

 

It's so silly that people against Vince are throwing out this "oh you want him on the Texans because he went to UT". That is nonsense. If Adrian Peterson were coming out instead of Young I guarantee everyone would be calling for AP over Bush.

It's not what school they're from, it's their ability and what they bring to the team.

 

Yes I agree to take it with a grain of salt. But atleast their opinion of VY was shaped about 60 minutes of football at the highest level non-Pro level in the most pressured of situations rather than the top 10 highlight plays mostly accumulated versus hopelessless overmatched mid-major college athletes. When guys like Ronnie Lott and Marcus Allen (SC alums) are saying VY is at a whole another level and owning the a field that includes other great players like Bush and Leinart that is not easy to dismiss.

I think most people who want the Texans to draft VY think VY could be THE most dominant player in pro football in 3 years and don't want to miss out. Not that he will be, but he certainly could be, and you don't miss a chance like that. I think whether he played for UT or anyone else had that guy did what he did people would be saying this. It is not a big stretch to say VY put on the most dominant stretch of college football that had been seen in the kind of atmosphere. That is not speculation and extrapolation from a few plays, that was from observation of every snap. That is why I brought up all the comments from people w/o UT affiliation, and even those that I am sure would have love to say Bush/Leinart were better but just couldn't with a strait face.

Intelligence is least important for an RB than any other offensive position. LT scored a 13 on the Wonderlic but doesn't preclude him from doing it all as an RB. It doesn't hurt if Bush is smart on an IQ test, but hardly that relevant, football intelligence is a lot more important. Lots of players performed great in SC system--Bush, Jarrett, LenDale, I think the one who needed full command of it was Leinart. Bush took a break about every other play anyway.

I don't know about VY's general IQ or academic performance, but his football intelligence seems fine from everything I have seen on the field. But the Texans can evaluate this a lot better than me.

We really should forget need. If you think Bush is the next B. Sanders you don't not draft that guy because you have Davis as an RB plus an all pro young return man (Mathis). If VY is the next Elway you don't not draft him because you have one David Carr. You take your Elway-like prospect and trade your Carr for what you can (late 1st) if that is what it comes to.

So (the Texans) make your judgement based on who will be the better, more dominant, pro football player. From the field, in top level competition, it was clear VY was the most special player out there. It was by a mile. When teams got faster (UT/SC) VY game translated and was just as dominant as ever, Bush was much less of a factor once the defensive speed got better. Given the worst NFL defenses are much faster than UTs defense, it doesn't look to be Bush will be this dominant, match-up killer, most think he will be. Sure, go ahead and do all evaluations you can in person to see how much of their special qualities will translate to the pros. But like I said it would take really unimpressive workouts of VY and really impressive workouts of Bush to convince me Bush has a higher ceiling as a pro. Since we do know VY kicked Bush's and every other Trojan's ass on the field right now the onus should be on Bush to prove in workouts he is such a phenom you can pass on a potential franchise QB (VY, or perhaps Leinart for that matter).

 

Actually, it's not silly because it holds truth. That's the reason a lot of people want Young here.

If Adrian Peterson was coming out along with Bush there would be an argument to be made. However, if Young and Peterson were coming out together then people would still be screaming for Young. It's just funny how before Young had that game everyone was saying he was a good QB who needed to return to school and fine tune his mechanics before going pro and now you want to pick him #1 overall. It's not like he played against a great defense either. He had an amazing game and is probably going to be a great player but 1 game changes people's opinion of a player and a team's need that quickly.

Hey, I understand why people are leery of Carr. He hasn't performed well. Many analysts say that even Peyton Manning couldn't have made the playoffs here. You're ready to scrap this guy and take a chance on another QB (one thath as questions marks around him as well and can't help us immediately). I'd rather see what Carr can do when we put Bush, a couple OL, a receiving TE and a good #2 around him.

 

And a lot of us would look like to see a bigger(6'5 230 ish), better passing version of Michael Vick leading the Texans huddle. The fact that he is from Houston/UT is the icing on the cake. This is not a decision made on one game for the vast majority of us. I argued that Vince should have won the Heisman and I have watched him play for 3 years now. He flat out is the best college football player in the country. You saw that in California. He has poise in the pocket beyond his years. He led my Horns to numerous 2nd half comebacks(Elway like magic) and he is lethal passing/running. Not to mention that, look at his willingness to do film study and learn defensive coverages. The winning TD to Limas in Columbus was due to his film study, and he frequently took what USC gave him in the Rose Bowl. In fact, go rewatch the last play. He does not look to run until he goes through his progressions. People say USC should have known he would run it. The truth is he was thinking pass first, and ran when everyone was covered.

Also, about his running. He is an intelligent scrambler. He always looks for the sidelines, and takes as few straight on hard shots as possible. He also has ankles of steel, as player after player repeatedly went for his legs and came up empty every game.

 

Your argument most of the people want VY because he is from Texas is silly. VY is a potential franchise QB. Not potentially an adequate QB, potential game changing franchise QB. You don't miss on one because there is great RB prospect available, even if you think that RB might be one of the best in the league. Had VY did what he did for UCLA, A&M, OU, VTech, for anyone, most Texan fans would be intruiged by him. Being also a Cowboy and Longhorn fan never stopped me from routing for Roy W as a Cowboy and supporting his draft selection, because I knew the guy was an animal defensively. I knew it all too well going into the draft.

Also, VY didn't play against an excellent performing defense, true, but SC has lots of 1st day draft picks in the secondary and DL. They were quality athletes (who underperformed as a team, yes) who he made look like non-athletes.

Not just an amazing game, the most impressive display of running, passing, and leadership that tons of nuetral observers have ever seen. Also, it isn't like he didn't have the best QB passing rating in the country going into the game and wasn't the key cog on the nations highest scoring offense. It isn't like VY hadn't been a great player for 20+ games. I think the NT game just connected the dots for a lot of folks who then saw what kind of unique athlete, passer and leader VY was. They were like, oh we missed it badly thinking Reggie Bush was the best and most talented college football player. After seeing the last two Heisman winners and VY on the same field they were like now we know better, crystal clear really.

 

On the other hand, that should spike the interest of Aggie and Tech fans in the Texans (plenty of them around, believe me)

 

I wish people would stop comparing him to Vick. Yes, he's a scrambling qb, but he doesn't have Vick's speed or elusiveness.

Maybe in the mold of McNabb, Daunte, Elway, Young, which is damn good as far as scrambling goes. But Vick? Even Randall Cunningham? No.

 

The comparison is valid. He is slightly slower(darn that dreaded 4.4 forty time) but is just as elusive. What do you call sliding out of ankle tackles like they are nothing, all the jukes/fakes/etc? He definitely has Vick's elusiveness, just slower. I could even argue he is harder to bring down than Vick(ie more elusive).

Now, I will say that Vick is better than Vince in space in regards to running, but as far as total elusiveness, I've seen few qb's as hard to tackle period as Vince. People try grabbing his ankles and he just brushes them off.

 

Ah yes, Mel Kiper, he of the distinguished NFL resume, having never worked for the league or any team in any capacity, ever. That's code for "a bunch of guys on the internet" such as yourself - and ZERO pro scouts boards, as you do not have access to them and are talking out your ass.

because young is a better quarterback, and, post-rose bowl, was the best player in the country last season. He was better in the Rose Bowl, and better during the course of the season than Leinart.

That's why he was the starting QB on the all american teams, won the Maxwell and D-OBrien awards, finished ahead of Leinart in Heisman voting...etc.

Oh yeah, he's also a better fit for Houston than Leinart in a difffernent sense, which has been covered exhaustively.

 

Not sure how AD factors into this. With his running style, he won't last 3 years in the NFL. He is an upright runner which is why he's always getting injured.

 

So many guys have said so many things about Bush and Young that I'm just going to say let's forget about that aspect. It's pointless to go back and forth about he said she said stuff.

I don't think there's any chance of Vince being the most dominant player in football in three years and that's why I think a lot of people's judgement is clouded. Anyone who knows football knows Vince will sit out at least a season (maybe two) adjusting to the pro game. He hasn't played in a pro style offense , has a lot to learn and whoever drafts him isn't going ot throw him to the wolves. Let's just say he's starting by his second season. I just don't think you can expect him to set the world on fire. QB's take time to develop , everyone knows that. I better time frame for Vince being great (which we still have to consider an if) is 4 years. That's fair. It could go under a year and be 3 or even over and be 5 you just never know. Reggie can give you an immediate impact. He's going to help us right now. I like DD but he's injury proned and isn't a gamebreaker. Bush can help our passing game and be that game breaker in the backfield that makes people think twice about blitzing Carr on every down. You come with a full blitz and we call a draw, it's 6. I haven't seen a player like Reggie since Barry (who happens to be my favorite player of all time). The move so similar. If you watch them both you'll see. Plus, LT and Reggie are going to work full time together. You have to love that. I'm not saying that McNair isn't a good mentor for Young but I'll take LT instead.

Intelligence always makes a difference to me. LT may have scored a 13, Akili Smith got liek a 38. I already said I don't put stock in that test. From listening to both players (I've also met Vince on several occasions) Bush sounds a lot more intelligent. Couple that with what I've heard from people from UT and that's where i got the intelligence factor. However, it hasn't effected him on the field yet and maybe it never will. It may not even be true, he just may not be well spoken.

I agree with you on drafting the guy you think is the best to a certain extent. I'm not rerady to give up on Carr yet and I'm more sold on Bush being the next LT , Barry or Faulk then I am Young the next Elway. All the runnning QB's have been injured and that's something i take into consideration as well. People always say "Bush wasn't on the field that much". What? He played receiver, running back, kick returner and punt returner. He has to rest sometime. Let's not forget that he had another player in the backfield with him that will also be a #1 pick.

Young kicked USC's defense all over the field not Bush or anyone else. He played an outstanding second half and pulled it out on 4th and 5. However, if he doesn't make that play are we even talking about this right now. Bush still gave USC over 230 total yds and people say he had an off game. If we draft him I hope those off days come every Sunday. Say Vince scrambles on that last possesion has to throw and it gets picked. Say that USC safety doesn't drop the sure int. Say the replay equipment isn't broken and they rule Young down on that pitch. Say Bush doesn't make that dumb pitch at the beginning of the game. Say Lendale White can gain a yard on 4th or USC does the smart thing and punts. I know that's a ton of what if's but they are all possible (in fact all happened except Vince throwing an INT on the last possession). I just think the UT factor comes into play here because I never saw anyone want Leinart before (and justifiably because we don't need him) and he is viewed as a franchise QB

 

Actually, Vince runs nothing like Vick. Vick is smaller, quicker and faster. Vince is elusive but runs straight up and is going to get pounded in the pros (Vick does too)