ESPN Broussard: Houston has a very good chance at Bosh

No, you said

Then I said

Meaning, even though help now might be better, extra space next year is still of value.

I do want to disagree with this, though:

To start with, a TPE will expire in one year; you might not want to use it in that time frame. In fact, it is quite common for teams to let TPEs expire. You might very well prefer something that you can use next year, because using that TPE this year will put you over the cap, or over the LT, for instance. Also, you are getting a benefit by having a player with an expiring contract, while you are waiting for his gig to end. For instance, the Rockets got some benefit from Jeffries this year, though they would have benefitted more had they not had Hayes on the roster.

Also, you said

They will have cap space; are you saying they'll just sign a FA with cap space, rather than trade? Still, if they trade somebody for an expiring contract, that expiring contract will increase their cap space next year. Yes, teams with cap space are not usually in position to S&T, such as Chicago and NY right now, and Miami, to a lesser extent.

 

I disagree that a package of Ariza, Hill, Llull's rights and the knicks 2012 first round 2011 swap option is better, (I'm assuming the Rockets give their 2011 pick to Toronto) let alone substantially better than any other Bosh appropriate team could offer.

The value of this trade rests primary on the Knicks, with Hill probably of nuetral value and Ariza a negative value. If i were toronto, I rather have have Shane battier's or Jeffries expiring contract than have to pay Trevor Ariza's 4years 28million dollar contract. Jordan Hill has little trade value as evident by his being traded along with Jared jeffries and 2 first round picks in a salary dump. While I believe the 2011 knicks swap pick is probably more valuable than Miami's or Chicago's 1s round picks, it is still likely a pick anywhere from the 10th to 20th pick. With the 2012 pick likely even later.

Now is two NY mid pick from the Rockets substantially better than Chicago's option of their own pick and the bobcats 2011 picks along with taj gibson and a savings 16million dollar as well as a 16te? How about Miami's 2011 first rounder along with the return of the Raptors 2011 pick and a savings of 16million dollar? Of course its hard to guage how the knicks, bobcats and raptors will fare next year or after, but odds are the 2011 raptors will likely be worst than the 2011 and 2012 knicks.

For the sake of argument, lets assume the rockets offer is substantially better... could no other bosh teams match it? IMO not only can Miami, chicago, san antonio and dallas match it, but they can blow it away... either by absorbing Turkoglu's contract or sending superior players with good contracts. In the case of Miami and chicago, both could absorb Turk's contract as well as Bosh's if it was the only way to get toronto to deal. While im not sure how likely willing the heat/bulls would be, this deal clearly trumps the rockets offer as the raptors not only get 2 1st rounders but MASSIVE salary relief. The heat would probably be more likely to do this as they have more cap space as well as a need for a starting 3. Bulls unlikely due to Deng's big contract (unless they agree to a swap of deng for bosh and turk which would offer them relief of turkoglu but result in a bigger contract)

The Mavs could offer the same relief by sending the Raptors, Dampiers expiring (partially guaranteed) 13mill Butlers expiring 10mil and barrerea 2mil for turk/bosh OR they can send highly prized beabouis along with Dampiers expiring for Bosh along with picks/cash. The spurs likewise can offer Hill/Tiago along with mcydess and fillers for Bosh.

IMO these deals are better than the Ariza, knicks pick lluh and Hill, but perhaps I'm overvalueing these deals... THE SPURS - George Hill, Splitter SA picks or THE MAVS - Beaboius, salary relief, Butler Dall picks, or THE HEAT - Miami's pick, raptors pick, 10+++mill OR 20+++ million (per/yr) cap relief or THE BULLS - Taj gibson, Chicagos pick Bobcats pick 10+++mil or 20+++ mil (per/yr) cap relief.

But assuming I'm wrong and these deals arent better than the rockets or no team would take on turks contract, are the rockets deal soo much better that Toronto would hold out any sign and trade deal with other teams just for the sake of the rockets, irregardless of whether or not Bosh wishes to play for them??? I find that hard to believe.

 

Both a TPE and an expiring contract lasts only one year... last year of a contract, hence expiring. Furthermore a TPE is more valuable simply because the owner of the TPE does not have to pay the salary value amount of the TPE while waiting to use it NOR does the team which he trades the TPE to. For example, while eddy curry's expiring contract IS valuable, the knicks still have to pay Curry his 10million dollar salary to he is traded, and the team recieving curry will likewise also have to pay the salary. Thats why of the all expiring contract next year, by far the most valuable is Eric Dampier whos 13 million expiring contract is only partially guaranteed to the amount of 2 mill or so.

 

I always notice when I come onto this site? I always see our fans talking ourselves out of all of the best players we never want on our teams. LOL! Always some argument why it works better money wise for some other club and how you can get another team a better deal and why losing Battier would be too steep a price for the allstars of the league. I like how they are always optimistic that Yaos leg will somehow magically turn into titanium over night and lift us to promised land without Bosh on our team or another Superstar. :grin: This site is a trip with its fans. I mean they really dont want the best players here. Only guys with hard hats and solid citizens who can do this city proud trying hard and always failing. Man, what a circle of ground hog day results this enduces for Houston fans. Nowhere more evident than a normal Houston Rockets site. I like it though. Its kind of growing on me. Even though I know it wont help my team at all. Its cute.

Its like watching a complete circle come to fruition right around to the starting point that always end in usual Houston results for their sports teams? But the fans mirror that process going on. Keeping us in that holding pattern of the circle by being part of the process.

Process is talk something up
Get excited
No no no it wont happen!
I didnt like him anyways
Here is how the other team will beat us anyways
darn it it didnt happen again
Well Yao is good enough or insert X name in blank here____
first round exit.
onto the next year

This is the year!!!!!

I want Chris Paul this year!!!!


Start process over.

 

Google is a wonderful thing. Bosh turned 26 in March.

 

Aside from the fact that I am puzzled as to how Ariza has negative value, there is one point on the sign and trade when discussing other teams that you have to acknowledge.

Ultimately, this entire gamble is based completely around one thing: Bosh has an abject interest in playing for the Houston Rockets. If Bosh in fact has no interest in playing for the Rockets, then we're wasting our time, though I do believe he has some interest otherwise we wouldn't be doing this.

Consequently, there is no point in discussing whether Dallas's offers for a sign and trade trumps ours or whatever. If this was a normal trade, it would be important, but it's not. Given that Bosh has explicitly said he has no interest in playing for Dallas, Dallas can offer all their valuable assets and they would just be wasting their time. Furthermore, Bosh would not want a team that gave up TOO much to get him, as they would be gutting the team, so there is a balance that has to be reached, giving up enough to satisfy Toronto but not too much so that Bosh doesn't feel like he's going to a gutted team.

Furthermore, stars liked to be told how great they are and told how well they would fit in with us. We're as far as we know the only team that can only do a sign and trade that has seriously pursued Bosh, and so in all likelihood, if he is to be sent to one of the teams that doesn't have cap space, it would be us. There is a reason ESPN has only discussed sign and trade with the Rockets and the teams with cap room, and no other team such as the Lakers or Spurs. They will not get him.

Secondly, I would argue that ECs could be potentially more valuable then a TPE depending simply on who the player is. Jeffries's EC is probably less valuable, but Battier's is not, as Battier is still a good player who can do a lot with Toronto.

 

Raptors president Bryan Colangelo couldn’t quite say it Monday afternoon.

He couldn’t quite come out and say “rebuilding.”

But for the first time in his tenure running the franchise he allowed that the Raptors are looking further down the road than the season immediately ahead.

“It feels like we’re turning over a new leaf as we build this roster and put a new product out there the floor,” he said yesterday.

The men sitting to his right were doubtless happy to hear it.

Colangelo was speaking by way of introduction of the team’s newest members, a pair of rookies-to-be in the form of Ed Davis, drafted No. 13 overall and Samuel Alabi, drafted No. 50.

With Chris Bosh all but gone and Andrea Bargnani and Reggie Evans the only big men under contract – the club can’t confirm the signing of Amir Johnson until Thursday – there could be no better time to be close to seven feet and a Toronto Raptor, at least if the chance to earn significant playing time is the goal.

“It’s going to be a good fit: great organization, great city, I’m ready to work,” said Davis, a 21-year-old sophomore form the University of the North Carolina.

Said Alabi, a 22-year-old sophomore from Nigeria by way of the Florida State University: “It’s a great opportunity for me. I’m excited to join the team and contribute to the program.”

What the program will look like is still anyone’s guess, though for Colangelo it’s youth now that it appears almost certain that Bosh will signing as a free agent elsewhere.

There was no mention of veteran Hedo Turkoglu and almost no reference to Bosh, other than for Colangelo to imply that the Raptors won’t be bending over backward to assist their former franchise player by way of a sign-and-trade unless it benefits Toronto.

“Things have to make sense for all sides,” Colangelo said. “Things have to make sense for the player. Things have to make sense for the two teams involved. That’s the part that ultimately has to be decided. He [Bosh] might decide on a franchise and we participate, we may not. That’s kind of where things are.”

And while Colangelo said he’s been communicating regularly with Bosh’s agent, Henry Thomas, the names that came up in the context of introducing Davis and Alabi were Raptors youngsters Sonny Weems, DeMar DeRozan and Johnson; the new guard, in other words.

Which is fine with the two newcomers, each of whom fell to Toronto from their projected draft position due in part to some medical issues – Davis’s surgically repaired wrist is now 100 per cent and no one was happier than his father, Terry Davis, a former NBA journeyman who understands that success in pro basketball often has as much to do with opportunity as talent.

“I had to go a little big of a different route,” said the elder Davis, an undrafted free agent who played for four teams in his 10-year career. “But having the opportunity to come to a team that has a need for you is a little bit different. I think it’s a great opportunity for him and he’s going to make the best of it and hopefully it will work out for him and Toronto.”

Alabi is well known to the Raptors because he developed under the watchful eye of assistant general manager Masai Ujiri, a fellow Nigerian. It was that familiarity that encouraged the Raptors to trade a future second round pick and cash to the Dallas Mavericks for Alabi, whose draft stock was falling due to concerns about him being diagnosed with Hepatitis B during physical testing at the league’ pre-draft testing as well as concerns about some earlier injuries: a stress fracture to his shin suffered a couple of years ago and since healed and a chipped knee he played with during the season and has since been surgically repaired.

Both players come advertised as shot-blockers and rebounders who patrol the lane with determination. They will get a chance to show their wares with the team this month during the NBA’s summer league in Las Vegas. If they deliver on that front it will indeed be a new era for Toronto.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/raptors-looking-to-the-future/article1629444/

 

Ha Ha! Bill Simmons:

 

I would agree with you if we weren't about to get a new CBA...one that most seem to think will result in lower salaries for players. That's an extra element of risk that you are ignoring and you shouldn't be, since that's the main reason all of these dudes structured their contracts to end this summer. Wouldn't it be smarter for Bosh to get his guarenteed 6 years and include an opt out in his contract?

 

Funny... all the reports say Bosh care about the guaranteed 6th year a lot. But of course DaDakota is right since he is a CBA expert who recognizes the meaninglessness of the guaranteed 6th year at $25 million, as well as a basketball expert who recoginzed the NBA worthiness of Spanoulis, Langhi, Von Wafer, etc.

Why isn't this guy a GM or at least a power agent is beyond me.

 

Chris_Broussard

Raptors have told Cavs they would do a sign-and-trade with them for Bosh. Cavs and LeBron working to convince Bosh to join them in Cleveland

Game's over yall....wade's going to ny.

 

Yeah, having an opinion about the 6th year and whether it is a deal killer is tantamount to treason !!!

How dare anyone have an opinion that you can't spin a stupid sexual innuendo around....go back to your bridge troll.

I do agree this is the biggest weakness in my thinking about how important the 6th year is or isn't.

DD

 

First off, San Antonio nor Dallas are getting Bosh. There has been no mention of them and they have only expressd mild interest. He's not going there. They could offer S&T deals that equal ours, but it doesn't matter.

I got a couple of problems with the rest of your argument.

1. Ariza is not negative value. While his contract is long term, he's not terribly overpaid like Turk or Deng. In fact really he's probably making right about what he should be making as a league average player. We're just used to having guys like Scola and Landry making 3 million. Regardless, Toronto pursued Ariza last off season and, according to DM, he is one of our most called about Rockets. He has value.

2. Jordan Hill doesn't have "neutral" value. The Knicks were r****ded for including him...check that...they were r****ded for not playing him prior to the trade. His trade value was at rock bottom because of D'Antoni's mindless preference to play Jeffries. However in the 20 or so games he played for us he showed that he is a quality NBA player NOW who has a ton of potential upside. You're foolish if you think TOR has no interest in Hill, even if only as a future asset.

For Toronto, the only salary they actually take back is from these 2 players, players they would probably want. Andersen's contract would be paid for by us and the other 1.5 million from Harris and Johnson is not guarenteed. Then you throw in 2 first round picks (10-20 range) and the rights to Llull and yeah, that's a dang good offer, significantly better than a trade exception and the insult of taking their own pick back. "YAY! WE GET OUR OWN PICK WHICH IS GREAT BECAUSE WE ARE GOING TO SUCK SINCE WE'VE ADDED NO PLAYERS! GET YOU'RE SEASON TICKETS NOW!"

Now would Toronto hold out to get this and not cooperate with Bosh if offered anything less? I don't know. Morey's probably in his ear as we speak telling him to play hardball. Look where that strategy has gotten us. We wouldn't ahve these assets if it weren't for Morey's stones.

 

Doesn't an SnT also give greater raises (and, if to Florida/Arizona/Texas, no income tax)? There are millions of incentivized reasons to do a max-max deal, if one is chasing every last $$$.

Is that wrong? I think it's fine, it's legal and very much wthin the system (a system the owners may have difficulty in challenging after using it so hard in the shadow of a looming CBA/lock-out).

 

Espn reporting Nets owner says Wade and Bosh to Miami.

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5357254

 

Fixed.

 

Just get this crap over with.....let's get players who really WANT to come to Houston.

DD

 

Yep, the very best deal on offer. And now the Suns may be willing to do an SnT giving Amar'e more, and the Suns 'an asset'.

 

Just to correct you on something... Amare wanted the six year deal with Phoenix. The problem was that their owner Robert Sarver wasn't willing to give him a Max deal. He wanted Amare to take a paycut which he choose not to. So at that point, Amare had not choice but to take the 5 year $100 mil contract. It wasn't his first choice.