1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[ESPN/Broussard] Caron Butler on Rockets' Wish List

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by rockets934life, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. waytookrzy079

    waytookrzy079 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,808
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    sorry...typo...fixed..
     
  2. MrButtocks

    MrButtocks Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    7,311
    Likes Received:
    5,314
    I hope that by "baller" you mean serviceable. Hinrich is a decent pro and that's it. I'm sure Ronny knows that too, but he's just putting his theory out there as to why so many people unreasonably wanted him so badly. Let's face it: two years ago, at the height of Hinrich fever, he really was an overpaid, overrated white guy.

    I've asked a couple of times what makes Hinrich so much better than Delonte West. I never get a response. Hinrich put up better production (in more minutes), but their skills are remarkably similar. They're both combo guards with great defensive ability and solid outside shots. I'd say West is a better finisher inside. But no one ever advocated getting West, despite him making 3mil/yr and being available. Instead, everyone wanted Hinrich who, at the time, was making 10mil/yr. Looking back now, it's probably because of the tats. Delonte looks thuggish and this board has a not-so-hidden desire to get good guys.
     
  3. waytookrzy079

    waytookrzy079 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,808
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    screw Hinrich... he's killing me in fantasy!
     
  4. Rookie34

    Rookie34 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,820
    Likes Received:
    51
    If the Rockets want Butler, they might consider this one (perhaps with draft picks) ...

    Rockets trade:
    * McGrady (expiring)
    * Battier
    * Cook (expiring)
    => to the Bulls

    Bulls trade:
    * Salmons
    * Deng
    => to the Wizards
    * B. Miller (expiring) => to the Rockets

    Wizards trade:
    * Butler
    * Foye (expiring)
    => to the Rockets

    Rockets incoming players: Butler, Foye, B. Miller
    Wizards incoming players: Deng and Salmons
    Bulls incoming players: McGrady, Battier, Cook

    Let Ariza play Battier's spot with more focus on defense, his points will follow after that. Butler will be our scoring wing and B. Miller (expiring) knows Adelman's style of coaching. Maybe we can resign B. Miller cheap, after the season as a back-up of Yao. Foye (expiring) can also play SG and we all know RA likes small players at the guard spots (Brooks-Lowry = Bibby-Bobby Jackson).

    Contracts work => ESPN NBA Trade Machine ...
     
  5. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 1999
    Messages:
    8,353
    Likes Received:
    4,861
    By "baller", I did not mean that he was a star by any stretch of the imagination. However, I do consider Hinrich as being more than "serviceable". I think he's a quality "Third or Fourth Best Player on a Championship Team" type of guy. Something akin to what Shane Battier means to a franchise. Not a stat stuffer, but a guy who contributes to winning basketball games.

    Also, I have always (until recently) LOVED Delonte West as a player. I would have loved for Morey to have plucked him in free agency two years ago. I agree that he has many of the same attributes as Hinrich, although I think Hinrich would have had a better career thus far if he got to play with a guy like Lebron (or even Paul Pierce before that) who can draw in the defense and kick out to him for open looks. Up until his recent meltdowns with Bipolar Disorder, include the gun possession charges, I would have gladly advocated a trade for Delonte West. Right now, though, I don't know if I'd want to deal with his baggage. Great (and very underrated) player, though.
     
  6. h0uston83

    h0uston83 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    1

    I tottaly agree. Ariza is more of a true SF..he just doesn't mix well with someone like Shane who plays the same position..Ariza will be our future SF..and sooner or later the Rockets will end up getting a true SG..Igoudala? Martin? Wade?
     
  7. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,571
    On Hinrich:

    1. I doubt the Rockets go after him, not at his current salary, not when they have cheaper options in Brooks and Lowry (I know he gonna be an FA, but he's restricted and I don't think he'll make close to $9 mil next year) who are doing quite well. There are better ways to spend $9 million under the circumstances.

    2. I don't think Hinrich got overrated or overpaid due to being white, the reason why he got overpaid was that he was a part of a Chicago team that (1) finally achieved some degree of success after the Bulls suffered years of just horrible basketball after the Jordan/Pippen/Jackson departure, and (2) consisted of generallly popular and likeable guys, and (3) had more money to spend than they know how to spend it. Luol Deng got overpaid and probably overrated, Tyson Chandler got overpaid, Andres Nocioni got overpaid. They even overpaid Ben Wallace when they brought him in as a FA.

    Big and small, black and white, domestic and foreign, they were paying pretty much everybody during those years.

    **** like that tend to happen when a horrible team finally found some young talent, who tend to put up more stats on such bad teams than they would have on a good team, and deems him "the future." Such horrible team tend to be desperate for talent and marketable players, and tend not to have too much salary at the time they pay that guy. It happened with Zach Randolph, Andrei Kirilenko, and quite a few others.
     
  8. Scarface281

    Scarface281 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Messages:
    8,513
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    Wow.

    People like to talk about Iguodala and him being overpaid, but give Hinrich a pass and call him a "baller". Hinrich is hardly a baller. I'd give Iggy that baller status.
     
  9. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 1999
    Messages:
    8,353
    Likes Received:
    4,861
    You're probably right . . . HOWEVER . . . my point was more about Hinrich not being the albatross that a guy like Samuel Dalembert would be as the "bad" part of a trade to net the Rockets other significant assets. Also, I truly believe that Brooks, Lowry and Hinrich could all carve out enough minutes to play in the same rotation, with a starting backcourt of Brooks/Hinrich and with both Brooks and Hinrich capable of playing some SG (especially since both Hinrich and, to a lesser extent, Lowry are capable of guarding opposing two-guards). Ariza could take the leftover SG minutes, which are all the minutes he ought to be playing at that position to begin with. Plus, having a guy like Hinrich would give Morey substantial leverage in negotiations with Lowry this summer and would also keep Les from overpaying Lowry if he got a better offer elsewhere.

    But, again, a lot would depend on what ELSE the Rockets could get from Chicago in any trade where the Bulls "dump" Hinrich on them.

    This. This. A thousand times, THIS!!!
     
  10. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 1999
    Messages:
    8,353
    Likes Received:
    4,861
    Sorry, perhaps "baller" was not the proper term for me to use. I simply meant that he was a quality basketball player.

    And where am I giving Hinrich a pass? I readily admit that he is overpaid. I will also admit that, all else equal, I'd rather have Iguodala at his (inflated) salary than Hinrich at his (more inflated) salary.

    The key difference between Iguodala (who I never even really criticized, just saying that he was a little overpaid) and Hinrich are the OTHER ASSETS that the Rockets could acquire in trades involving those two.

    In order to get Iguodala (again, the better player and the better comparative value between the two), the Rockets would likely need to take on the horrendous contracts of either Dalembert or Brand. No, thanks.

    In order to get Hinrich, the Rockets don't have to take back any OTHER bad contracts, since Hinrich himself would BE the "bad" contract. Any such trade would involve something better than Hinrich coming over in addition to him, all for the privilege of having the Rockets take Hinrich's "bad" contract off of the Bulls' hands.

    So, to break it down to its simplest form, if forced with a choice of:

    Option #1: Andre Iguodala + [cap-killing crap]
    or
    Option #2: [significant assets] + Kirk Hinrich

    I'd look long and hard at Option #2.

    I hardly think that qualifies as giving anyone a "pass".
     
  11. waytookrzy079

    waytookrzy079 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,808
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    I like Iguodala more than anyone that's being rumored because he can do so many things! You pay Ariza midlevel because of ONLY his defense. You pay Iguodala DOUBLE what Ariza makes because of DOUBLE THE PRODUCTION.

    AI can create his own shot, gets more players involved, has much better ball-handling and is just as good of a defender (if not better...can be debatable).

    Kevin Martin is only a scorer..will not rebound, will not dish it out, defense is suspect. Not to mention...he's missed a ton of games in the last 3 years.

    07-08 - missed 21
    08-09 - missed 31
    09-10 - missed 31 (maybe more)

    Caron Butler (since he's being discussed) has missed

    06-07 - missed 19
    07-08 - missed 24
    08-09 - missed 12
    09-10 - missed 2 so far

    Andre Iguodala missed 7 games in 06-07.. Other than that, he's played in all 82 games in 5 out of his 6 seasons in the NBA. So you can add DURABILITY to the list.

    06-07 - missed 7 games
    07-08 - missed 0
    08-09 - missed 0
    09-10 - missed 0 (so far)

    The last thing this organization needs is someone with a history of injuries...
     
  12. Scarface281

    Scarface281 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Messages:
    8,513
    Likes Received:
    3,129
    I see what you're saying. I just don't think Kirk and friends would put the Rockets over the top like Iggy would. I doubt Chicago gives us Noah. I'd do that trade for Hinrich + Noah + Salmons. That would be good and the Rockets would be deep.

    The waiting game sucks. I want a trade already.
     
  13. MrButtocks

    MrButtocks Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2005
    Messages:
    7,311
    Likes Received:
    5,314
    What you say is 100% true. I didn't mean to say Hinrich was overrated by his own team; Chicago's been including him in trade talks for years. I'm saying that Hinrich was overrated here, on Clutchfans. Did anyone ever want Deng, Nocioni, or Ben Wallace at their inflated salaries? Once those guys inked their deals everyone realized that they were overpaid and bad fits for the rockets.

    Hinrich didn't get the hate. There were lots of people here deluding themselves for years that he was actually worth his deal.
     
  14. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,571
    I can only see a Hinrich deal work if

    1. Either Brooks or Lowry get traded away (either in a separate trade or in a multi-team deal) for some other talent, creating more of a need for Hinrich's skills, AND

    2. As you mentioned, the Bulls compensate the Rockets for taking on Hinrich's bad contract (the guy they want it probablly Noah, but would they take something else, like a 1st round pick?).

    Thing can go a number of directions this year... I can see next year's Rockets essentially being Yao Ming, the current squad, plus a couple minor changes, or something completely different.
     
  15. HowsMyDriving

    HowsMyDriving Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    102
    the rockets are in a great position. good core of young guys, who it seems have great chemistry and a lot of potential to improve, plus a few key veterans to stabilize and lead. whether changes are made or not, i have confidence that the future is bright.
     
  16. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    28,217
    Likes Received:
    21,681
    :)....
    Say no to the overpaid, 38% shooting, combo guard... No, no, no...

    Hinrich a "baller":rolleyes:
     
    #136 RudyTBag, Jan 12, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2010
  17. desi tmac91

    desi tmac91 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2008
    Messages:
    3,206
    Likes Received:
    240
    Hinrich is one of the better defenders in the league, I wouldn't mind getting him in a deal as long as Noah is coming our way. Kirk is just in a bad situation in Chicago, maybe a change of scenery rejuvenates him.

    The Wizards deal is gold too...a 18-20 ppg scorer plus two very solid role players? Wow.
     
  18. Rockets4279

    Rockets4279 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,208
    Likes Received:
    14

    I agree the article kind of contadicts itself they are willing to take on Hinrich then question the contract of Igoudala who is twice the player i dont get it.
     
  19. HowsMyDriving

    HowsMyDriving Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,375
    Likes Received:
    102
    His point is that as far as "bad contracts" go, Hinrich is about as good as it will get, assuming that the other players you get back are the real impetus for the deal. Nobody is arguing that Hinrich is outperforming his contract. Nobody is saying he's a good value. The point the man is making is that if you're going to absorb a bad contract, a hard-nosed defensive PG that can guard SGs, and will likely fit well in Houston isn't the catastrophe that some are saying.

    Again, Hinrich is a good player, not great but good, and if you're going to absorb a bad contract in order to collect other assets, you might as well get a good player as opposed to a useless one (stromile swift, etc).
     
  20. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Messages:
    28,217
    Likes Received:
    21,681
    Who in their right mind believes that Joakim Noah, John Salmons and Kirk Hinrich are going to take us ANYWHERE?


    Are we trying to win a championship here? Surprise, these guys will NOT do it...

    Absorbing a bad contract to get effing Joakim Noah is a Joakim joke...
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now