I don't know which Von you have been watching, but the one I saw was a one-trick pony on offense and a liability on defense.. Yes, he's skilled, but Ariza is much smarter and a better all-around player.
Nomad, I am thinking we don't know what Yao's status is and to get a player that primarily fits into a team with Yao is not all that necessary. Why get a flawed player and pay him the MLE? Focus on 2010.....don't lock up any contracts beyond that. And my question is still unanswered. Can someone name one Wing player who was bad at dribbling and creating that became good at it? Just one? DD
I don't see what your fascination with having a wing creator is though, creating is more of the PG's job and we have two guys who are really good at it. We did just fine last season with Battier and Artest, and I highly doubt "driblling" and "creating" are Artest's strong points. AB and Lowry are good guys who can dominate the ball, as long as Battier and Ariza are hitting their shots I don't think the offense will suffer. The defense will probably be even better though, Ariza is much longer and faster than Artest.
Ros, you need 2 creating players on the floor to aleviate the pressure of the other team taking one out of the game late. And I don't think Brooks is a great creator, but is a good finisher, so it would help the team overall if you had another creator to play with him that was not a midget, too. DD
How much of Ariza have you actually seen? Can you point to specific instances of lack of handles, or is this one of those things you repeat? He didn't handle the ball in LA that much because they had a ball dominating 2, one of the best ball handling forwards in the league, and a point guard. I saw a guy with exceptional length and stride capable of getting from the 3 point line to the rim in less than 3 dribbles. In terms of ball handling, I really don't see a dramatic difference between him and say Richard Jefferson or Josh Howard.
I hope that you are not trying to imply that Von was versatile? And how much cheaper would he have been? He turned down the 3.5 million. Was that a one year? over 2 years? While Trevor is being perhaps overhyped you seem to overlook the fact that Sasha pretty much made Von a non factor in that Lakers series. Now lets compare the two in the clutch. Who showed up that series? Von or Trevor? Who was the guy coming up with the big 3's? The defensive stops, steals? If we are only talking 1-2 million difference in asking price, I will take our defensive stopper of the future versus the spotty two guard who disappeared when the team needed him the most. Not to mention the bench episode. Must be something with the V Von... Vspan... Now I see the connection
There is a significant difference between Howard and Jefferson. Ariza is closer to Jefferson who also is closer to Battier. Not the best handles but acceptable if your pg and sg have good handles. Ariza brings many toher things to the table like Battier and he is improving.
and Wafer is certainly not the "creator" you're talking about. and in all regards, Aaron Brooks is just as bad as Rafer when it comes to finishing near the basket. Also Aaron is probably going to be a MUCH better shooter. Can't be stuffed trying to load the HotSpot image here but I'll briefly list his finishing stats: near to the right of the basket: 10-33 .303 near to the middle of the basket: 14-37 .378 near to the left of the basket: 11-37 .297 Immediately around the basket/underneath the basket: 129-278 .464 thats one of the lowest finishing percentages when it comes to NBA rotation PG's. And I'm not hating on him and I think hes a great player, but in addition to really bad finishing he also can't create at all. Playing Aaron right next to Wafer doesn't work at all...each of them will only look for their own shots most of the time, and certainly once they start their drive to the basket you know a shot is going to be hoisted up in the near future. Aaron is going to be great next to a guy like T-mac, a shooting PG who can knock down the open shot created by a creating SG like T-mac and B-Roy. Brooks + Wafer starting??? say hello to the lottery.
You bring up a good point however I think RA's system negates the need for that tradional creator on the floor. I look back at the Sacto team he had and that was essentially a six man lineup with fillers. Divac, Webber, Peja, Christie and Bibby, a lot of them were good passers but none of those guys can be called creators. Even their main sub (Bobby J) was also just a Bibby-lite clone. As I mentioned before, we did just fine with a lineup of Artest, Battier, Ab, Scola and Yao, with no pure creators in the team. Sure we struggled on O sometimes, but that was more due to Artest taking a nosedive offensively and chucking up clanker after clanker. We'll definitely be fine as long as DM gets a serviceable big man. We get someone like Zaza, and pencil us in for the playoffs.
DD, With respect, you speak of Ariza and Brooks as though they've already hit their ceiling and won't/can't improve in certain areas. We don't want/need Ariza bringing the ball up or creating, but rather slashing to the hole and either finishing or hitting the pull up J. Plus, he brings defense on the wing, something we'll sorely need. Also, Brooks hasn't had a full season at the helm yet, and I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt that he will improve at creating shots for teammates and finding them in a position to score. He hasn't given any reason for us to believe that he can't improve there. As for the playmaker you seek, I don't think Von is the best option either. Chances are, if he isn't shooting, he isn't helping the team. Ariza has the potential to help in a number of areas, not just shooting. As for Ariza's contract, I have no problem with it. He'll still be in his 20's when it expires. With his upside, I say it's a win, and it fits with what I believe Morey is trying to do with our cap.
DD, Take a look at these stats. Ball-handling turnovers per 36 minutes: Ariza - .5766 Artest - .7197 Wafer - .7359 Of course, Artest and Wafer used more possessions than Ariza. Adjusting for this (dividing by usage rate), you get this: Ariza - .0345 Artest - .0294 Wafer - .0320 So yes, Ariza technically is not as good of a ball handler as Artest or Wafer (both Artest and Wafer are actually really good ball handlers) but as you can see, the difference is marginal and overall, Ariza is a good ball handler.
can you post someone who is bad ball handler like a battier or someone else like that in the league for more reference? btw where do you find ball handling turnover stats?
Battier doesn't use enough possessions to be statistically significant, IMO. The worst ball handler I can think of playing the 2/3 is Stephen Jackson (who, ironically a lot clutchfans seem to want?) who comes out at .0612.
Interesting stats, but let's not forget that Ariza did not do a lot of ball handling for the Lakers. And my biggest issue with Ariza is that we are paying for him when we don't know Yao's status... I would rather they not commit to any long term contracts for role players... DD
The fact that Ariza did not do a lot of ball handling is accounted for by dividing out the usage rate to make the grounds even. Here are how a some of the players who play the 2/3 who are considered "good ball-handlers" come out: Lebron - .0324 R. Jefferson - .0339 Kobe - .0344 Turkoglu - .0434
