[ESPN] 18 years since a player averaged 20+ppg & 14+rpg

Elloctee- Get the league pass 1st before talking about other players. If you don't think teams don't double howard, either ur blind or don't see basketball. Then u said he's slightly better defender than yao which is a joke. He's a much better defender than Yao as is yao is a better offensive threat with a larger arsenal of moves and a bigger player.

I wish some posters would watch other players and respect them for their talents and skill. I've been through this talking about Miller v. Francis v.Davis v. Bibby. It was countless times I referred to the other guys as being as good if not better than francis during their peal yrs. All the avg rockets only watching fan could see was franchise. They didn't see the other guys that were playing really good at that position. I guess its easy if that's all u see.

I've had the league pass since its birthday and I watch a lot of the other teams even though I'm a rox fans through and through. It is amazing when posters can't see how good other players are. If you listen long enough, they'll have u thinking yao is the only post that gets double teamed or if yao played in the 90's he would put up better numbers. I find thi laughable at best. 1st the sheer physicality of the 80 and 90's ball would dwarf Yao not to mention his slowness that teams would just isolate him and attack like they do now. They are some things yao would benefit from, but there were better bigger centers in the 80's and 90's compared to now.

Back to howard, I think in 2 yrs its not even going to be talk about who is the best center in basketball. Its going to be howard because even if his offensive game will never resemble hakeem, other parts of his game is better every yr. He does have some offensive game now being the primary focus. He has a little jump hook and a drop step. I don't need my center taking 18ft jumpers until they perfect the post game. His ft will be better, but never a 80% type guy. The thing is he goes 11 times a game.So if he goes 7-11 and 9-15, that s 26ppg right there. Open ur eyes and be a student of the game, not a fan.

 

^^^^^

LoL every single season without fail you brag about having league pass like you're the only dude who watches the NBA or something

 

Dwight has the most atheleticism of any center ever so at 22 it is hard to quantify exactly what he will be but most of the best centers showed more smooth offensive ability right out the gate. He has developed alot offensively since he's been in the league though.

I think what you said about Yao is incorrect though. Yao would be better in the 80's and 90's because there was no zone/illegal defense. No one would be able to double team him before the catch, meaning you could over throw the ball and have him go get it and be in much better post position. His competition would be much better though and he definately wouldn't be the top center.

As far as Francis, he was always a little overrated because of his atheleticism. But because of this he was more effective than all of the PG's you named. Anytime you take away atheleticism from a player who has so much of it and uses it in everything they become alot less effective. Webber, McDyess, and even tmac have delt with it but Francis just didn't have the bball IQ to continue at a high level.

 

better defensively than shaq? are you sure? shaq showed he can still contain yao one-on-one in his twillight years. can howard do it now?? shaq consistently shut donw any post player in his prime including duncan!

 

u right, lol. I guess its amazing how a lot of people are not students of basketball and make comments. One example is this whole theory of yao playing better in the 80's and 90's.

Anyone that watched hoops during that era know a few things. First, there were more and better center then. Start with moses and kareem, add ewing, dream, and robinson and end with shaq,zo, and deke. Almost every night u were playing really good post players. A 3rd yr shaq was drpping 28 and 12 in the finals against the premier center in dream. Against memo, yao shot 44%.
Next, the rules back then would allow yao to do well. What about the psudo zones teams used to run? What about the sheer mudering that used to happen in the post. What about teams isoing yao on the wing with no help. If poster talk about how physical teams play now, go google 94 rox v knicks.

I just want people to gve other players their due. One guy talks about tracy losing his explosion. Tracy had back surgery and he's still the best player on the rox. His atheleticism was so great that his skill still makes him top 5 at his position.

Rebounding and blks isn't because of atheleticism, its instinct and timing. That's why deke and barkley could still rebound at their later yrs.

 

The biggest difference I notice from prior decades up to now is with shooting accuracy and shot selection. Every other player in the league used to average 50+% from the field. They took good shots and they canned them. Today we have knucklehead galore in every division who make you scratch your head on every other possession with the kinds of shots they take and then the easy open shots that they clank.

And in years past I don't just mean the top-flight shooters like Hornacek, Kerr, BJ Armstrong, Bird, Walter Davis, Eddie J, etc. Back in the day almost everyone was automatic from mid-range. Even the centers. Parish, Sikma, Perkins, even James frickin Donaldson could stick the 12 foot J. I still vividly remember a playoff game where Thorpe got an offensive rebound, passed it out to Hakeem at the FT line, and then proceeded to jog back to the other end of the court before Hakeem had even released the shot. He already knew it was going to be an automatic 2 pts.

For the most part skills in the NBA have progressively eroded. Whether it's shooting, defensive technique, position rebounding - you name it. Now it's all about wearing capes and blowing out cupcakes.

 

Very good points!!!

That is why the second Championship was so amazing...

Hakeem had to play bring his "A" game every single series...

 

Dwight's got quick, Hakeem-like speed. But from what I've seen so far, the best Dwight can hope for is prime Shaq. Which is pretty heavy stuff...just that I could never see Dwight's game being as beautiful as Hakeem's dream shake.

Is it telling that in DHo highlights, there is inevitably one clip of Dwight hitting a contested jumpshot? XD (which Yao does for like 50% of his points...)

 

I believe yao would have been better in that era...

but there's a difference between being better and better by comparison. Yao would have been better than he is now but he might not have ever even been an all-star when you compare him to that era of greats.

 

I usually stick up for players currently in the game but you are completely correct because people hate to compare generations.

There were much more skilled players in the league then. I don't blame the players though, most of the times teams draft these guys who have done nothing and showed nothing because they think there's a possibility they'll become stars. Then skilled role players were preferred over atheletic ones. Of course, atheleticism is required to be great but it doesn't mean you will be.

The good thing is that most skills can be developed and if a player as atheletic as Dwight developed the same skills as some of the greats he would be frightening.

P.S. Patrick Ewing is the most overrated player of all time.

 

Pippen- I think the curse has been the 3pt line. Prior to 84, guys would kill the mid range. The reason being that is 23 ft shots were worth the same as 12fters. The coaches decided that the trade of and this goofy formula that justified a good 3pt shhoter @ 36% is just as good as 50%. The problem with that is 23'9 is further than 16ft, thus making it a more difficult shot. Last I checked the closer u r to the basket, the better the fg%.

The residue from this theory is guys shooting the 3 that has no business shooting it. So now people accept sub 40% players shhoting 12 shots because they shoot 35% from 3. When I coach young players, I take the 3pt line up. I do it cuz its like a magnet to young guys and pro's.

Every great scorer makes his living 18ft and in. From jordan to bird to wilkens to malone. Kobe,james,iverson,carmello, hamilton all make their living in this range. If tracy only shot midrange jumpers, his fg% would be 47% or higher. Most teams leave guy open 24 ft away for a reason. I know it was out of the context of the thread, I just had to rant a little.

 

The effects of the 3pt line are even worse than that...

it has influenced a whole generation of players and now dominates basketball. There are entires teams that live and die by it, not just a few players. It also rewards bad basketball. You guys remember a couple years ago when the Sonics had that deep run because they were so hot from the 3, they sure came back down to earth that next year.

Small ball is fine if you're still playing solid defense and rebounding like the rockets do but it really defies basketball logic to see teams just hoist them from 3 all night and win a game without an inside presence just because you can't trade 2's for 3's.

 

Incidentally, this is the same year that Stern took over. And I have to place a lot of the blame for the erosion of the game on him. Granted he has increased revenues several-fold and expanded the market for basketball to new fans the world over. But he has also turned NBA basketball into a mere "product" now, for entertainment purposes first and foremost. The money involved has corrupted the game, it's players, and it's potential players down the road as well. Where there used to be teamwork and sacrifice we now have everyone trying to be a star who gets Sportcenter airtime and then gets paid in the offseason. Most players used to add new skills and dimensions to their games in the offseason. Now we have players spending the whole summer in the weightroom so they can come back in October looking more intimidating when they rip off their warmups. Sure we still have some old-school players like Duncan, Nash, and Sam Cassell who loves the game so much he plays on one leg at age 38. But such examples are very few and far between. And Stern has to shoulder the blame for a lot of all this. With his neverending marketing-inspired rule changes, marketing-binding tv contracts, and marketing-whored apparel retailing he has bastardized the game beyond recognition.

 

except for all of that pretty much being complete crap, i agree.

you simply see what you want to see.

 

not my fault stern got you to buy that 'francis for president' practice-dunk jersey and mega-dribble action figure and all you got out of it was 5 yrs of hyper-r****do basketball and a bunch of interviews in third person format. maybe you shoulda gone for the moochie afro-deluxe buy buy bye package instead.

 

Like his commercial says, he's only 22. He will get a post game. The man could bring 3-4 championships to Orlando (assuming they don't let another beast get away)

 

i thought i might get a real response, but instead more tripe from the "i hate how things are now and love how they used to be big book of sports cliches and sayings." thinking only a few nba players have skills and work hard is beyond seeing what you want to see, it's just purposeful delusion so that the heroes of yesteryear can be propped up in your mind.

 

I don't consider myself stuck in yesterday, but I see what I see. I think some of the reason of the lower fg% is shot selection, mico-management, and player size.

Shot selection is the biggest reason. I think its good to play inside out, but front offices has forced square pegs into round hole. I mean if KJ was coming out now, they would talk about how he doesn't shoot the 3, but wouldn't talk about the ankle breaking pull up from the ft line. Anyone who watched KJ knew he was unstoppable at his peak, basically a modern day chris paul, but a lot of gm's want the pg to shoot 3's. That's why Parker and Paul kill guys because they can get guys on their heels and shoot uncontested ft's. Coaches believe having avg guys shooting a difficult low % shot is the answer. I mean rafer has no business attempting as many 3's as he do.

Micromanagement leads to poor shot selection. Now days coaches want to call every play from the sideline. They want to make 6 non penetrating passes and then take a shot with 4 seconds on the shot clock. I'm all for sharing the ball, but sometimes after pushing the ball up, that 2nd pass might be the best look u get at the hoop. Or on 2 on 2, coaches want guys to pull it out and set up.wtf. To me, that's easy picking and the offensive players should attack.

Longer players. U watch older games and some of those 18ft shots were uncontested. Now, u have longer guys contesting shots. I mean look at tayshawn and guy like that contesting shots. Even though some position like center are smaller. the 2/3 guys seem to be bigger.

 

and WTF was real about your initial response

"i don't like agree w/ anything you said b/c it's all crap......and francis rulez"

 

Good point about the longer players......that's definitely a factor now. Although simple Bball 101 would dictate that if you have a longer player on you then try to penetrate and maybe pull-up for an easier midrange shot instead of taking the contested jumper with this long guy all up in your face. Unfortunately, I see the latter far too often just about every game now.