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Enough is enough

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Juugie, Dec 12, 2003.

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uac Contributing Member

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Originally posted by Juugie
If you read my post you would see it says OUTSIDE OF HOUSTON AND CHINA as in New York, LA, Chicago. I live in New York right now and I can tell you that not a single New York fan has even mentioned his name all year. Nor should they, he doesn't play for their team. But to think that people all over the country want him so bad that they spens ever waking hour thinking about him is being paranoid.
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How about trade Yao to New York? hohoho

#201 uac, Dec 14, 2003

canoner2002 Contributing Member

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Originally posted by IROC it

Sure Francis is struggling this year, but wouldn't anyone in a new system? And especially so after being put on the back burner as the team leader? A realist would say that Francis is finally learning to be a true PG and learning to think teammates first, thus a realist would give him a break, or say he needs to learn on someone else's clock... but whatever your view does not make you a bandwagon jumper. It makes you a fan.

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And Yao is learning to play like a C we want him to be. He was never a power player in his life. If we are going to give SF time to learn to play like a true PG after he player that position for 5 years, we better give Yao time to learn to be power C after 21 games the new offense system was set up. Calling "enough is enough" is unfair.

#202 canoner2002, Dec 14, 2003
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The poster who started this thread is truly one of the smartest basketball fans ever.
Since you have argued every post of yours with logic and supporting facts, why don't you answer ttboy and munco's posts?
It's amazing that for 7 pages you have replied to so many other threads but have deliberately ignored theirs.
I'm calling you out, right now!

#203 Donatello, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by canoner2002
Calling "enough is enough" is unfair.
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No, Juughead just used that title to copy DaDakota's title thread about Steve's boneheadedness. Juughead didn't think it was fair to bash steve(the 4 year vet) without anyone giving Yao(the one year vet) the same criticism so he's dedicated his life to bashing Yao now. A real winner...

#204 Severe Rockets Fan, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by ttboy
Juugie, I have a question for you: If after 1 and 1/4 seasons in the NBA, you've ascertained Yao's ceiling, then surely after 4 and 1/4 seasons you've also determined Steve's, yes?

Please enlighten us: If you see nothing in Yao's game that suggests he's a player the Rockets can build around and win a championship with (and I'm not necessarily saying Yao absolutely fits that bill), what have you seen in Francis's game? Do you believe Steve is that player?

While you're at it, would you mind solving a few other mysteries for me? Why does Francis, with 5 or 6 seconds left in the half or a quarter, always jog the ball up the court before attempting a shot? Don't you think that if he attacks the ends of quarters with a sense of urgency, if he pushes the ball up and pressures the defense, that he can get a higher-percentage shot than the prayers he throws up (which, irrelevantly, are occasionally answered) or find an open shooter? But he always jogs the ball up--why?

Why does Steve dribble up the sidelines to get trapped at halfcourt at least once a game? Why does Steve bounce the ball off his own foot at least once a game? Why does Steve lazily meet an inbounds pass only to have a defender steal it from him due to his nonchalance at least once a game? The other 2 or 3 turnovers he commits each game he likes to switch around for the sake of variety: perhaps an offensive foul or two, perhaps an unnecessary over-the-shoulder pass, perhaps an 8-second violation, perhaps an over-and-back violation, perhaps driving into three defenders hoping to get bailed out by the refs (which even elicits cackling laughter from his own team's announcers at times), or perhaps one we'd never imagined before--Steve's greatest creativity seems to be in finding new ways of turning the ball over.

I like the title of your thread: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. But who is more deserving of it: the player who's had, what, 350 games of NBA experience? Or the player who's had only 100?

Please, Juugie, since you are such a wonderful evaluator of talent, would you please inform us as to why Steve still does those things after playing all these hundreds of games in the NBA? Championship-calibre player, I'm sure. Must be because he's sacrificing his game for Yao, huh?
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Ok, after being called out and all...

One, I never said Steve can carry us to a champiosnship. We don't currently have that type of player on our roster.

And Steve does all those stupid things for the same reason that Yao consistently holds the ball low and lets the guards come by and take it from him. For the same reason that Yao fails to get low post position. For the same reason that Yao tries in vain to back his noramlly smaller defender down. For the same reason that Yao resorts to the slo-mo turn-around that misses or is bloack more often than it goes in. For the same reason that Yao tips the ball around instead of grabbing it. For the same reason that Yao flops around trying to draw fouls instead of playing tough. For the same reason that Yao chokes and misses free throws at the end of games. For the same reason that Yao does a horrible job of showing on the pick and roll. For the same reason that Yao tries little flip moves under the basket that end up in the third row. For the same reason that Yao's greatest creativity is finding new people to be blocked and or dunked on by.

Because both of them have a long way to go as players.

#205 Juugie, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by canoner2002
Many people have no problem with criticizing Yao at all. Let's talk about what he did wrong and what he should be doing better. But saying he is making this team worse (the claim that other players are sacrificed because of him) is plain ignorant. And the request to give up on Yao and let the guards to play however they want is the stupiest thing said in quite a long time. Haven't we had enough with the iso style? This new offense is ugly, but it is new and give it some time to fine tune. Besides, we don't have a true PG and we have big problem on PF. Those are at the top of our problem list. Yao is not.
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well, what about those people saying steve makes this team worse?

#206 farhan007, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by munco
The offense starts with Yao and the defense is anchored by Yao. I'd say we're a better team than last year when it was a more guard oriented team.
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We had the same record this time last year and were also one of the top defensive teams in the league at this point last year. As per the Houston Chronicle.

Yao shoots better than Steve, better than Cuttino, etc. Yeah, he gets blocked too much for a 7'6" guy, but would you rather the guy that shoots close to 50% and gets to the foul line the most take the shot or the guy that shoots close to 40%. [/QUOTE]

If Yao would consistently be agressive and make his move quickly enough, I would have no problem with it. When he does that he is mostly successful. Yao doesn't have a scorers mentality. I don't think it does anyone any good to try to force them into something they aren't.

Yao isn't always going to have a great game. He did lose some rebounds he should have had, but if you watched the game you'll noticed that he was boxing out his man and getting pretty good position. [/QUOTE]

Yao has improved that part of his game and is doing a better job inside. But I fear his lack of quickness in moving and jumping will limit his effectiveness. Quickness is different than speed. Yao is a fast guy for his size, but his ability to change direction or to get in the air is very slow.

Yao is to blame for destroying SF's game and confidence? I don't think SF's game or confidence is destroyed. I think he's ok with the lower individual stats if we make the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

Yao is not to blame. He is only doing what he is told. The coaching staff and the offense we are trying to implement is bringing down Steve AND Yao's confidence.

Do you watch the games? Seriously. Yao is rarely guarded by 6'9" guys. About 10% of the time he's been out there I'd say. Ben Wallace was only guarding him for a short part of the game vs. the Pistons. Brian Grant is the only guy that I can think of off-hand who fits your description. [/QUOTE]

Ok. I'll give you that.

A big reason why Cat, Steve, JJ etc. get good looks is because Yao is the focal point of the opposition. We let Cat and Steve run with it for enough years without a playoff birth. We haven't even gone halfway through the season with Yao as a focus and your're ready to give up. This is despite our team playing better than in recent years. [/QUOTE]

I think the team gets a bad rap about not being in the playoffs the last three years. Which team from last year were the Rockets clearly better than? You look at all of the teams that made the playoffs and you can make a case that all of them were better than the Rockets except Phoenix, and the Rudy situation really brought this team down. Also, Yao has to take some of the blame for last year. He was a major focus of the team and his poor play was just as much of a reason as Steve's that we didn't make the playoff. If you say he's only a Rookie/2nd year guy then let him be a Rookie/2nd year guy. Get his minutes when he can and fit in with the vets just like Boki or EG. Once you say he is the main or 2nd main option, the rookie excuse doesn't float.

Right now Yao is a good player. Hopefully he can become great, but that remains to be seen. If he leads us to the playoffs, it'll be more than anyone's done for this team in a long while. Your post just wasted 5 minutes of my life. Thanks. [/QUOTE]

Yao is a good player and hopefully he can become great. If the Rockets make it to the playoffs, it will be because of a team effort. However something tells me that if the Rockets make the playoffs it will be because of Yao but if they don't it will be becuase of Steve. And that's not fair.

#207 Juugie, Dec 14, 2003

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Yao is a good player and hopefully he can become great. If the Rockets make it to the playoffs, it will be because of a team effort. However something tells me that if the Rockets make the playoffs it will be because of Yao but if they don't it will be becuase of Steve. And that's not fair.
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One of a few things you said that I can actually agree with. It's sad but it seems to be the way it is.

#208 wizkid83, Dec 14, 2003
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Juuie, do you know the basic rule of the salary match when the two teams begin trading...

1) Yao, Moochie, and throw in for Amare and Penny

4.1M + 3.6M < 1.9M + 13.5M

We need to add Cato or Cat... do you like it?

2) Yao and Moochie for Dampier and Nick Van Excel

4.1M + 3.6M < 7.8M + 10.9M

We need to add Steve... do you like it?

3)Yao and Mot T for Jermaine O'Neal and Artest

4.1M + 7.8M < 13.1M + 5.2M

we need to add Cat... Do yo like it?

4) Yao for Zach Randolph

4.1M > 1.2M

Portland need to add one more... you like it, right?

5) Yao for LeBron - I can dream right?

Use a big man for a potential superstar. I don't want to talk with you about it before Yao's fourth season in NBA.

In a word...

You are just a pure Yao-hater, noisy and plain stupid...

#209 tigernet, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by Juugie

Also, Yao has to take some of the blame for last year. He was a major focus of the team and his poor play was just as much of a reason as Steve's that we didn't make the playoff. If you say he's only a Rookie/2nd year guy then let him be a Rookie/2nd year guy. Get his minutes when he can and fit in with the vets just like Boki or EG. Once you say he is the main or 2nd main option, the rookie excuse doesn't float.

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That's like saying Caron Butler was the reason the Heat didn't make the playoffs last year. Not putting the blame where it should be put is exactly why bad teams stay bad. If the Lakers don't do well, is it because of the rookie they just signed? If the Spurs had not won the title last year, was it because of Ginobli or Tony Parker? This is why I am in favor of putting the ball in Steve's hands to see if he can take the Rockets to the promised land. If not, trade him after the season is over. Cut the losses before he becomes Eddie Jones aka the payroll albatross. At this time, Yao does not deserve a max contract, but the revenues received from having Yao on the team may just get him the max contract anyway. However, there's still 2 more years to decide with Yao. Time is running out on Steve's reputation with the GMs in the NBA.

#210 Charvo, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by Juugie
Ok, after being called out and all...

One, I never said Steve can carry us to a champiosnship. We don't currently have that type of player on our roster.

And Steve does all those stupid things for the same reason that Yao consistently holds the ball low and lets the guards come by and take it from him. For the same reason that Yao fails to get low post position. For the same reason that Yao tries in vain to back his noramlly smaller defender down. For the same reason that Yao resorts to the slo-mo turn-around that misses or is bloack more often than it goes in. For the same reason that Yao tips the ball around instead of grabbing it. For the same reason that Yao flops around trying to draw fouls instead of playing tough. For the same reason that Yao chokes and misses free throws at the end of games. For the same reason that Yao does a horrible job of showing on the pick and roll. For the same reason that Yao tries little flip moves under the basket that end up in the third row. For the same reason that Yao's greatest creativity is finding new people to be blocked and or dunked on by.

Because both of them have a long way to go as players.
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I think you have missed the point of ttboy. SF has been in the league for 5 years, yet he makes the same stupid mistakes over and over again. Where's the improvement? Enough is enough. I think 5 years is more than enough.
Why are you singling out Yao in particular? Yao is in his 2nd year, and has only played a little over 100 games. It is impossible for him to be perfect now, and ask him to dominate now. But he will dominate in the future, for sure. Remember all of those "expert" analysts who said that Yao would be a bust and dunking poster, Yao has made them eat their words and kiss "asses".

Any team in the league would want Yao. Every GM would trade for Yao if it's possible, except for a handful of players. When Yao enters free-agency, he will get the max. You will see teams lining up to sign him. I don't remember excactly, but someone said before if Houston would want Yao then. The question is, will Yao stay in Houston?

#211 Donatello, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by wizkid83
One of a few things you said that I can actually agree with. It's sad but it seems to be the way it is.
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You agree with this? It is a completely Yao-hater, Steve-lover statement. Yao has improved since last year, Steve has regressed HORRIBLY since last year, yet they are suppose to equally share the blame? Steve himself said he knew a lot of blame would be placed on him for any of the team's failures after he signed that huge contract, but he was willing to accept it. Too bad there are a few here that don't see it that way.

A lot of people are just missing the whole point of Steve and the rockets' failures because they are in love with him. Instead they're trying to move the majority of the blame from him to Yao(although Yao deserves his share).
Steve is getting paid the same amount that Tim Duncan, Shaq, KG, and J.O'neal would be getting paid with his experience...how the HELL can anyone here think he isn't a BIG problem with these numbers? 17/5/5. Is that a Franchise player?

I wouldn't have a problem with Steve if he was getting Mobley's check, that way we could get a quality 1 or 4, but as of now we are stuck with this consistent loser that can't fit into any system that doesn't allow him to play streetball.

#212 Severe Rockets Fan, Dec 14, 2003
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Originally posted by farhan007
well, what about those people saying steve makes this team worse?
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They are saying SF sucks at the PG position. But there is no doubt in my mind that this team, minus SF, will be going nowhere either. If we can trade SF for a true PG such as Kidd, Davis, or Marbury, we will be better. Yeah, keep the rest of the team, and trade SF for one of those, we will be better.

The same thing can not be said for Yao. There is no realistic trade for Yao that can make this team instantly better, because when SF runs the offense, he is underusing others' talents, at least at this stage.

#213 canoner2002, Dec 14, 2003

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I want to say we are doing better than last year as of today. Although we had the same record, we had fewer road games up to this point last year.

#214 canoner2002, Dec 14, 2003
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Because, yes most of them would say they would draft Yao 1st form his draft, very few if any of them would have drafted him over LeBron. [/B]
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uh last time i checked its big men who win championships, right (well for the exception of jordan)

#215 spydermex, Dec 14, 2003
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[QUTOE]
Originally posted by Juugie

One, I never said Steve can carry us to a champiosnship. We don't currently have that type of player on our roster.
......
Because both of them have a long way to go as players.
[/QUOTE]

OK. I agree that Yao isn't a great player yet. but after 4 years of lottories Steve has led us to, wouldn't it make sense to try something else? if you think Yao isn't going to lead us anywhere based on his perfomance in one and a quarter NBA seasons, what makes you think Steve would lead us anywhere after 4 seasons of failures? if your favorite player Steve can have 4 years to prove he sucks at playing pg, wouldn't it be unfair that you jump to the conclusion Yao with only one and a quarter seasons under his belt will never be great?? and ASSUME that both of them are not the type of player that can carry us to a championship, why the heck would you trade Yao but not Steve other than "Steve is my favorite player, I want to see him ride on another true superstar's cocktail to win a ring, and I don't care about Yao"?

#216 Jonhty, Dec 15, 2003
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Originally posted by spydermex
uh last time i checked its big men who win championships, right (well for the exception of jordan)
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Larry Bird
magic johnson
Bad boy's(isiah thomas, joe dumars)
they were the best of there team, and they weren't big man. they had good big man on theyr team, but they were the most importent players. so not only big man win championships.
i do not know who i would have picked, yao or james. They both have great talent.
Yes 1000 posts. now it is a fact i do not have a social life

#217 arno_ed, Dec 15, 2003
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Originally posted by Juugie
Unlike the rest of you, I don't assume that somehow Yao will magically grow some nads and become this beast of a player.
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LOL!!!

#218 DavidS, Dec 15, 2003

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I thought this Juugie troll wa going away?

#219 J DIDDY, Dec 15, 2003
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Originally posted by Donatello
I think you have missed the point of ttboy. SF has been in the league for 5 years, yet he makes the same stupid mistakes over and over again. Where's the improvement? Enough is enough. I think 5 years is more than enough.
Why are you singling out Yao in particular? Yao is in his 2nd year, and has only played a little over 100 games. It is impossible for him to be perfect now, and ask him to dominate now. But he will dominate in the future, for sure. Remember all of those "expert" analysts who said that Yao would be a bust and dunking poster, Yao has made them eat their words and kiss "asses".

Any team in the league would want Yao. Every GM would trade for Yao if it's possible, except for a handful of players. When Yao enters free-agency, he will get the max. You will see teams lining up to sign him. I don't remember excactly, but someone said before if Houston would want Yao then. The question is, will Yao stay in Houston?
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good question. Maybe Yao should just pack up and leave after his contract is up, just so trolls like this juugie can be happy. I hear Mark Cuben is ready to pay big bucks for Yao.

#220 J DIDDY, Dec 15, 2003

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