Enough is enough

That's true. If we want to do some of these deals for Rashard, Odom, or higher draft picks, we need an okay player with a low contract. That's where Kenny Thomas comes into play, for a trade.

On another note (I'm not a Kenny hater), but I don't see Kenny Thomas fitting into our team. I don't like Maurice Taylor, but it is highly unlikely that he will be traded. With Eddie Griffin backing him up, Kenny Thomas will be a third string power forward. Or he could be a second or first string small forward, but I don't see him fitting in as a 3. I think his skills are more adapted for the 4.

Not that I hate him, but TRADE KENNY THOMAS THIS SUMMER.

 

I agree with Jeff, who, btw, didn't in any way say he didn't like KT as a player, just that some of his so-called improvements weren't that great.

For all the people who rant and rave about our guards holding the ball too long or dribbling too much, KT is even more of a culprit at it. His offensive game, while highly successful, consists of getting an open pass, continuing to wait until he is guarded, holding the ball some more, moving it around in a little circle, driving, spinning and scoring. Don't get me wrong, in combination with his little 18 footer that he hit sometimes, he managed to be a good individual offensive creator. But overall, it generally did not help the team win. Defensively, he is pretty good for his size, but that's just it. He is a tweener, and there is nothing he can do about it.

All that said, I like KT, hope to keep him and play him off the bench as the 6th man with significant minutes. The return of solid benchplay to our lineup next year will be one of the keys.

However, if we had to trade him to move up and get Ming, I think I would, and might even package him in a deal for an upgrade at one of the starter positions. Not because I want to, but because he is probably the only player other teams will want.

 

Don't forget how good a rebounder Barkley was at 6'5".

DaDakota

 

Don't kid yourself. I've stood next to both of them at the same time and Kenny is not 6'8" by any stretch. He's more like 6'6 1/2". Taylor is a solid 6'10" and is significantly taller than KT. They fudge on heights a lot in the NBA. I'll never forget Mario Elie being listed at 6'6" when he was, in reality, BARELY 6'4".

As Da said, that doesn't mean anything given Barkley's accomplishments, but let's at least be honest about the reality of it.

 

Kenny Thomas is not Charles Barkley or Dennis Rodman. He's Corliss Williamson. A useful player, but the difference is obvious.

 

Jay,

KT plays very good post defense, in fact he is our best post defender.

He gets a ton of steals as the other teams PF turns to the basket and KT swipes at the ball.

Also, KT has such a quick jump that he gets his fair share of blocks too.

I would have traded Mo-T and kept KT, but now with Mo being FAT, it looks like the team is going down hill in a hurry.

DD

 

Don't kid yourself. First, I think you must be the only person who I've ever heard call MoT 6'10. He's always been listed at 6'9. So, you are also saying that Kenny was only .5 inches taller than Shandon. I've done my own measurements in the seats behind the bench and MoT is no more than 1.5 inches taller.

The point ILLEST is making is that Maurice Taylor is a TWEENER too, because he sure is not a prototypical power forward. LOL!!!!!

<b>Back to the topic of Trading Kenny</b>

2002 Kenny is better than 01 Mo. 03 Mo might not be better than 01 Mo; that's not in the bank yet. But 03 Kenny will damn sure be better than 02 Kenny; he's already shown vast improvement as I noted above... so, how do you measure his trade value.

You guys are treating him like salary matching fodder, like Tony Massenburg. We don't have enough quality depth to be making 2 for 1s. That trade better be eye-popping, or I'd just let KT improve another year and see what we want to do then.

The other thing to remember is that Kenny is a much better practice partner for Griffin. He'll actually toss Griffin around to force him to get stronger. MoT will give Griffin a false sense of success.

<b>bottomline</b>: Mo must beat out Kenny, after coming back from an achilles. I don't think he has a chance in hell now that Kenny has that left and right hook working. Kenny is much more the logical choice for who will work harder this summer, given that Mo has to still do everything gingerly.

 

Well said HP.

DaDakota

 

Corliss is shorter if you see them play side by side. Corliss is a short Maurice Taylor, not a Kenny Thomas Raging Bull type. Corliss has a different offensive repetoire with no rebounding/defense. He is softie like Maurice. I mean, he only averages 4 rpg for his career on 25mpg. Kenny had 6.1 his rookie year on same minutes.

He does not have Kenny's speed, left/right hook, defense or rebounding. That is a poor comparison of tweeners. Kenny brings more, is taller, is 4 yrs younger, and has more trade value. Kenny is a better tweener, because with his footwork, hands, and strength on defense he has a better chance of playing 2 positions than Corliss (and both, better).

<b>But here's the ultimate question for the thread:</b>

Was this a good trade:

Would you package Kenny and a future #1 for Jerome Williams and a proven 30-yr old loser in Montross. That's a bad trade made, because they didn't know how to use Corliss with Vince Carter.

Take your finger off your impulsive trade button if you intend to trade Kenny and a future #1 for Jerome Williams.

 

Kenny next year maybe be better than this year, I'm not so sure I'd say it's a certainty but it's likely... KT averaged 34.5 minutes a game this recent season. With Taylor comming back and Griffin's development and need for PT, he'll probably lose a few minutes at the 4. With Rice comming back, continued time to develop Tmo, whoever we draft or aquire at the 3, and the three guard lineup, KT's minutes at the 3 will also more than likely decrease.

That at least cuts 10 minutes of his playing time. With decreased court time will his production be the same? Will he be happy taking a lesser role on the team when he knows he can do more? KT's not in an ideal situation, if we could move him to a better one while making the team better how can you not pull the trigger?

 

Mo-T 6'10"?!?! Sorry Jeff, but I'm not buying.

As for the argument with whether to keep or trade KT, I'm on the fence because he was only player to make strides toward improving this year and is also arguably the only reliable post up player the Rockets have. In regard to his stats, I think JR is right on, but they are still not a true gauge of what he gives this team. Like Hey Pee said, he is a tweener. He's strong enough to play toe to toe with most PF's in the league and is also quick enough to stay with some of the SF's of the league. Unfortunately his low salary make him one of the few commodities the Rockets have to play with tradewise.

 

Jaybird,

OK, I'll just quickly repeat myself: I think Kenny is a more complete player than Maurice and with more upside. And no one has shown me a trade that doesn't treat Kenny as trade fodder.

Pimp,

I agree with you, but I just don't really understand the low salary thing, and why that makes him a commodity. To me, that makes him tougher to trade for something equal back.

History just doesn't show rookie scale players being traded much for anyone other than rookie scale players. Keon Clark is one, but boy was THAT a bad trade. I think the reason is that if they are proven to be quality NBA players, it is hard to get equal value back due to trade restrictions. We end up having to make those piss poor 2 for 1 trades.

 

I guess you're not understanding what I'm talking about. I haven't argued that Taylor has more upside or is the more complete player. The only arguments I'm making have to do with court time and attractiveness of contract.

Of the 3 Power Forwards, he's probably the second most attractive to other teams, and the easiest one for the Rockets to market.

The attractiveness of his low salary is for other GM's and allows him to be packaged with a pick, +/- fodder for an established player.

I'm no NBA buff so I don't try to pick out trades, I don't know enough about teams needs and wants to figure it all out. But honestly, what other tradeable players do we have?

 

You still haven't answered why not keep Kenny until next summer to see how things fall. Then you can do a sign-n-trade with him to match him with a $5-6m player. The attractiveness to other GMs because of his low salary this year says nothing about you getting us equal value back. That's where it becomes difficult.

Someone asked earlier and no one answered it: Who are you going to trade him for. Is he just fodder like Marcus Fizer?

<b>Really Bad Kenny Type Trades from History</b>

<ul><li>Are you going to trade Kenny and a future #1 for Jerome Williams, like Toronto did with Corliss. That is a BAD trade.
<li>Are you going to package Kenny with Torres for Charles Oakley type, like stupid Denver did with Keon Clark for Willis just because they had a "logjam" on their front line. Not meaning to compare Keon to Kenny, but the point is that you don't trade up and coming rookie scale players for 37yr old vets.</ul>If you treat Kenny like a Marcus Fizer toss in, you will make a bad trade, most likely.

<b>Bad trades due to logjams are still bad trades.</b>

I'm sure Toronto wanted Corliss when Vince went down. I'm sure Denver wants Keon Clark back now that LaFrentz is gone.

Don't make a bad trade with Kenny just because we have this so-called logjam due to a crippled, fat, softie PF needing minutes and another crippled, old, slow SF who lost his shot needing minutes, and some lively SF with NO SHOT (terrence) needing minutes. The Rockets SUCK if Mo and Rice suck next year, face it.

<b>We aren't good enough to have logjams.</b>

It just sounds like everyone is freaking out because we suck, and are ready to make a bad trade with Kenny, just to be making a trade. We cannot afford 2for1s using our fastest improving players just to be making a trade.

If we need to make a trade, just use both picks. Or dammit, get some REAL VALUE for Kenny straight-up like Turkoglu or Radmanovic or Wally overrated Szcishkabob.

 

Fantastic post, heypartner, especially this line:

Great point.

You have to look at it as being a period of 'audtioning.' The Rocks are still trying to put pieces and combinations together, no way are they set at any position.

Granted, they may choose to build around certain players (namely Steve, Cat, and EG), but they aren't in a position yet to say 'we're set here and here, blah blah blah.'

Just as Clutch alluded to on the front page, the team is not to the point where there are 'untouchables' or logjams. And thank goodness for that, at least that shows they have BIG goals and won't be happy just making the playoffs. And if they have to rip up the roster, (unlikely, but still an option) so be it!

Hey, remember, the Mavs at one time had Kidd & Mashburn, and traded both of them. Now, they're a championship-caliber team.

Something to think about.

 

HP I see where you are coming from that maybe holding KT another year is the best option. I just think getting another decent servicable center or center prospect is more important than keeping him--but you have me on the fence now. Anyway, would you have any interest in the following if offered (yes, no, maybe)?

How about:
#15 + KT + Collier FOR Doleac + #6 pick

How about:
KT + Collier FOR Gatling + #10 pick (Probably then ship the #15 to complete the Grizzlies deal unless we package #10 and #15 to move further up the ladder)

How about:
KT + #15 pick FOR Haywood + #11 pick

 

My opinion is we should definately keep Kenny. The last offseason he worked out to bulk up and improve his game and wants to improve more, and that was thinking he would just be a second string player. Imagine how he'll work to keep the starting spot. He may not be the biggest player out there but he plays with the most determination and doesn't let anybody push him around in the paint. We don't know Taylor will be in shape to start next season, either because the injury isn't fully rehabed or because he's fat, so do we trade Kenny and start Eddie if Taylor isn't ready? Kenny is the most tradable player we have, but I don't think we can get what he's worth and it will come back to haunt is if we do trade him.

I would rather see us use our two draft picks to get new talent. We may not have a championship team next year, but if we can get Tskitishvili or Woods with the #5 and a good big man with the #15 then we'll have a team that can contend in a year, maybe even next year.

My starting line up next year:
Francis/Moochie/Brown
Cuttino/Oscar
Rice/#5 Pick/Morris
Kenny/Eddie (maybe not that order) / Taylor
Cato/#15 Pick

 

HP, why do you assume the worst about any possible trade?

Like I've said before, he's our best tradable comodity, and the Rockets managment would be insane not to seriously consider offers; if they see a window of opportunity.

The whole idea isn't to push Kenny out the door, and I doubt highly that anyone wouldn't be happy to have him back. The reality is though, that if a trade is going to happen it's more likely to be KT on the block than anyone else? Do you disagree?

Who's saying we trade him for a 37 year old vet? If KT were essential in a trade to get Odom, this is all hypothetical, wouldn't you have to at least consider that?

This year's draft is possibly one of the deepest in history, if KT and the 15th allows us to move up in the draft to get the center, or small forward Rudy and the Front office are looking for; doesn't that merit consideration?


I'm not advocating trading KT because of a logjam at the 4. I just think that in the right situation trading Thomas could improve the team. And if that situation comes about, it has to be strongly considered.

 

HeyPee, with so many telling me that the reason the Rockets sucked this year was because these two were injured, isn't that statement unpossible?

Seriously, I agree that we should only trade KT if we can get good value. I would rather trade MoT, but that seems very unlikely, due to his physical condition. I don't mind the Rockets trading anyone on the roster, if we get good value, although I would probably like to see Cat traded the least.