1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Enough Already -- Stop Funding the Taliban Through Opium Prohibition

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by GladiatoRowdy, Oct 30, 2007.

  1. halfbreed

    halfbreed Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2003
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    26
    No it's not a position of ignorance. I would have been able to get anything within a matter of hours if I wanted to. Just because I didn't doesn't mean that it changes the ease of access. I'm willing to bet I would've had a lot easier access to a lot of those things than you did. I just didn't want to get involved in all of that.

    I'd also be willing to bet that more students graduate high school having consumed alcohol or tobacco than have tried other types of narcotics. Easily. Ease of access is completely different than actually using.
     
  2. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,789
    Likes Received:
    3,708
    he also started this thread on how heroin is funding terrorists. that's a real issue.


    you guys do realize that all these drugs were legal at one point in time.
     
  3. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,199
    Likes Received:
    15,369
    Heroin was legal for all of 10 years before it became clear that it was a disaster and made illegal (this before modern epidemiological techniques). It was, of course, legal before then but didn't exist, so it’s hard to see how that time period is relevant. Cocaine was legal but nearly impossible to get in pure powder form and people didn't have the internet to download simple purification techniques. I can email you 15 different recipes for extracting relatively benign codeine from OTC Tylenol #4's available in Canada.

    This was also back in the day, when people went and had 5 or 6 drinks with lunch, drove drunk back to the office, and spent the second half of the work day blitzed. Also, you could walk into the local sporting goods store and buy a machine gun without any ID. Do you think that simply because those were legal at one time, so they were positive influences on society and we should go back to them?
     
  4. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    43,789
    Likes Received:
    3,708

    the point is society survived. many successful people have been hooked on many drugs, including alcohol. this isn't an argument for legalization either way, but when drugs were legal there wasn't an apocalypse is the point i'm making.

    drugs being illegal gives real mean people real money to do real bad things.
     
  5. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    LOL. Unfortunately, I quit using that stuff years ago, so I can't help.

    Actually, when talking about opiate law, particularly WRT Afghanistan, one of the best proposals I have seen is to legalize the poppy trade there in order to increase the supplies of painkillers like Morphine for use in pain treatment in countries where they can't afford adequate pain treatment.

    In addition, it is difficult to separate the issues at least partially because our government keeps all illicit drugs lumped together. There are plenty of great arguments for regulation of opiates (see the above paragraph for one as well as the post above regarding the Swiss prescription heroin program), but the most compelling arguments are definitely for regulation of mar1juana.

    Personally, I think we need to regulate ALL intoxicants based on several scientific measures (addiction rates, potential for abuse, physical harm, societal harm, etc.) and get politicians and law enforcement out of the process. Law enforcement should get involved when a violent or property crime is committed and if the crime is related to drugs, the sentence could be enhanced. Politicians should not be involved in the issue at all.

    This is a healthcare and education issue, our political and law enforcement approach has been an unmitigated disaster.
     
  6. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    And in the intervening century, we have found that even heroin "junkies" can become responsible members of society in the absence of prohibition.

    That is not to say that I would make heroin legal to purchase, but I would make it available for maintenance through prescriptions as these programs have a great track record of bringing people in for treatment.

    Chances are that if cocaine were regulated, its primary method of ingestion would be the same as it was in the 1800s and early 1900s, mixed in drinks like Coca-Cola and Vin Mariani (wine mixed with cocaine). Some people would certainly use various techniques to extract purer forms of the drug, but if we got serious about the regulation by tracking sales, we could identify probable cases of abuse before those problem users went all the way off the deep end.

    No, but IMO, prohibition has had a far more negative impact on our society than regulated drugs would. We could come up with a strong system of regulation that would minimize the harms that drug use and abuse have on our society.
     
  7. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,199
    Likes Received:
    15,369
    I think you are being unrealistically optimistic here. People will find a way to do what feels good. See our fabulous record with scheduled prescription drugs, despite voluminous controls. You would literally have massive operations of front companies buying in mass quantities and industrially extracting cocaine for sale as rock or powder. This is a prescription for disaster, increasing the ability for production without altering the end user side of the equation. If you are going to sell and control it, you need to actually sell what the people want, which is rock and powder, and probably a few needles on top of that.

    I appreciate your good intentions but I don't think it would work in the orderly, logical fashion that you have described.

    BTW, you know why junkies are called junkies? Researching that is a nice case study in legal heroin.
     
  8. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Perhaps this is the case, but I see our current drug policy as worse than anything else we could possibly try. Prohibition exacerbates every harm inherent in drug use and abuse and has not, to date, solved a single problem that I am aware of.

    And at least one reason is that intoxicants other than alcohol are prohibited. Different people have different ideas of what "feels good" and regulation of intoxicants will allow us to find better, less harmful intoxicants as well as better, less harmful ways to use the ones that already exist.

    For example, smoking mar1juana carries some of the risks of smoking tobacco. However, one of the common methods that medical mar1juana patients use is vaporizing, which is far less harmful and carries all the benefits of smoking.

    We have many issues with prescription drugs because people are misusing them as recreational drugs. If drug companies were able to experiment with recreational pharmaceuticals, they could come up with drugs that are just as euphoric, yet less likely to cause physical addiction.

    Not if there are restrictions on the amount that can be purchased, like a responsible policy would have. There would certainly be some people who would perform the extractions you talk about, but we can track their sales and flag them for interventions once their purchasing history shows potential abuse cases.

    In addition, crack was made by and for drug dealers who wanted an easily measured, easily transported, and easily disposable product. if adults were legally allowed to purchase drinks with cocaine instead of caffeine, most people would simply consume the drinks rather than go to the trouble of extracting powder and then cooking crack.

    Agreed. I would create an education system that would be required to have a license to purchase these drugs. Education is the number one way to keep people from using the most dangerous drugs.

    If a fully educated adult wants to purchase, we should have a system that gives them a known dose of a product free of adulterants.

    People want the high, they don't care HOW they get it. If they can get the high from drinking Cocaine-Cola or Vin Mariani, the VAST majority of people will simply consume it as it is sold.

    There will be those cases of abuse, but abuse is a tiny fraction of the overall drug user community. The vast majority of people who use cocaine do not experience problem usage. This is different for heroin, as it is more addictive, but even heroin users can be responsible, employed taxpayers in the absence of prohibition.

    You are correct, just as a battle plan never survives completely after an army has engaged the enemy. That is why scientific study into the best ways to reduce intoxicant abuse is central to the policy I would create. That way, we could, over the course of time, figure out what works best and implement changes accordingly.

    Yes, they used to collect scrap metal to support their habits, but prohibition has simply made the problem worse, as evidenced by the success of the Swiss prescription heroin program.
     
  9. weslinder

    weslinder Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    Partially off-topic, but this thread has run that way:

    andymoon,

    What attempts to isolate the medically beneficial properties of mar1juana have been done? One would think that if a person could get a prescription for THG or whatever in pill form, it would have an easier time getting public acceptance. Just a thought.
     
  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,199
    Likes Received:
    15,369

    Sorry, lost track of this thread, but the rush is as important if not more so than the high.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ct26,1,6146906.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

    which is why this guy ground up his pills and injected them. This is also why people grind oxycontin and insuflate, and why cocaine and crystal fiends only take their drugs oraly wrapped up in toilet paper when their noses are too bloody and swolen to snort anymore. In the cocaine fiend's case, from the brick the easiest method of consumption would be to just rip a chunk off and swallow it. Instead, they drop it on their mirror and chop it up into well powdered rails. The easiest method of consumption is clearly orally, but they go to all the trouble to keep on snorting it because it provides faster access to the bloodstream.

    This is also part of the reason why people keep smoking their weed, instead of taking pills as above.

    Addicts have always gone for the rush.
     
  11. Dairy Ashford

    Dairy Ashford Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,585
    Likes Received:
    1,888
    Legalizing it might compel more kids to try it, regardless of access. Just a hunch.
     
  12. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    There is already a pill form called Marinol, as well as a sublingual (under the tongue) product. Patients report better results with mar1juana than with the extract of THC in Marinol and other forms.

    http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6635
     
  13. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    Not according to the research that has been done. Criminalization has not shown to be an effective deterrant for children, as evidenced by the fact that half of our young people use illegal drugs before they leave high school, as opposed to Holland, where rates of teen drug use are roughly half what we see here.
     
  14. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2002
    Messages:
    16,596
    Likes Received:
    496
    There is a BIG difference between "addicts" and drug users. The vast majority of drug users are able to use responsibly. Past month cocaine users in 2006 were about 1% of the population according to SAMSHA, which would mean that we would have 3 million crazed cocaine abusers if every one of them were classified as abusers. Most people who use drugs, even cocaine, do not experience problem drug usage.

    We do need to have programs (paid for by taxes on the drugs themselves) to deal with abusers. However, extreme examples of addicts do not extrapolate to the drug using population as a whole.

    For anecdotal evidence, I have a good friend who used to do a few rails before going out to clubs when he was single. he was able to do this and then not use again for weeks or months until he went out clubbing again. I cannot understand or comprehend this since I found out at 16 that my body REALLY likes cocaine. However, he was able to use it responsibly and doesn't use at all anymore (mostly because he is married and doesn't go out clubbing anymore).
     
    #54 GladiatoRowdy, Nov 1, 2007
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2007
  15. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    100,985
    Likes Received:
    103,387
    Back on topic, here´s a little non-norml (from the noted lefty nuthouse National Review) info on the impossibility of waging both a war on opium and a war on terror in Afghanistan. This is not a ¨legalize everything, end the drug war¨issue. A little common sense & prioritization would be nice to see.

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MmYxYTE2ZDBjZjRmMGIzNjViYmU5ZTFlYzUxNWU3YjM=

    http://www.senliscouncil.net/modules/Opium_licensing

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=Mzc1YjY4M2NjN2Q2NzFkNmQwZGM0MzlmMzgwMzI4NDU=

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/08/world/asia/08spray.html?hp
     
  16. SWTsig

    SWTsig Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,055
    Likes Received:
    3,755
    we used to buy acid and ecstasy at my high school... not at parties on the weekend or after school (although that too), but actually IN school.
     
  17. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,199
    Likes Received:
    15,369
    How 'bout Afghan opium?
     
  18. lpbman

    lpbman Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2001
    Messages:
    4,240
    Likes Received:
    816
    That brings back horrible memories of my pre-cal teacher making me sit by his desk and trying to explain something or other to me reallllly slowly... right after I became intoxicated for the second time in my life (Acid fer gods sake)

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! leave me alone! I just want to stare at 16 yr old breasts and the flicker of fluorescent lights...
     
  19. LScolaDominates

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,834
    Likes Received:
    81
    It's a moot point, as you haven't even attempted to show why or how opiate abuse among minors would increase post-prohibition.
     
  20. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,199
    Likes Received:
    15,369
    I wasn't really trying to make a point. But now that I think about it, I did make a point without even thinking about making a point.

    The argument, proffered by several people, was that kids can already can get every illicit substance in the world easier than buying alcohol while in high school. My unintentional point appears to be that one drug, the drug in question and the drug around which this thread is built, does not flow like water from an eternal fountain in every high school in the USA, thus contradicting the characterization of the absolute pharmacological cornucopia in America's public schools.
     

Share This Page