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Elon Musk is no hero

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by DaDakota, May 12, 2022.

  1. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    https://www.theguardian.com/technol...ises-chinese-workers-for-extreme-work-culture

    How do you become the richest man in the world? In Elon Musk’s case, part of it involves making workers in China put in hours that would be unacceptable according to labor norms elsewhere.

    On Tuesday, the Tesla boss praised Chinese factory workers for pulling extreme hours while taking a shot at American workers. “There is just a lot of super talented hardworking people in China who strongly believe in manufacturing,” the billionaire said. “They won’t just be burning the midnight oil, they will be burning the 3am oil, they won’t even leave the factory type of thing, whereas in America people are trying to avoid going to work at all.”

    Musk’s comment comes as Tesla’s massive Shanghai “Giga-factory” pushes its workers to the limit to meet production targets amid an ongoing pandemic lockdown.

    In April, Tesla restricted its Shanghai workers from leaving the factory under a so-called “closed-loop” system originally developed by Chinese authorities to contain Beijing Olympics participants. While locked inside, the workers were reportedly made to work 12-hour shifts, six days in a row, and to sleep on factory floors. Production at the plant was forced to halt this week due to parts shortages, the company said.

    Labor rights and safety violations have been reported at Tesla’s Shanghai factory since it opened in 2018, with some workers making as little as $1,500 a month in what an investigation by local journalists called the “Giga-sweatshop.”

    Even in the United States, Musk is well known for his disregard for labor norms and work-life balance: the tech billionaire infamously declared “nobody ever changed the world on 40 hours a week”. He has bragged about making Tesla’s US employees work 100-hour weeks, while claiming to have worked 120-hour weeks himself. In March, Musk called an all-hands meeting for his other company, SpaceX, at 1am.

    These practices are on par with China’s extreme work culture, nicknamed “996”, in which workers are expected to work from 9am to 9pm, six days a week. The practice has been the source of protests in recent years and has been characterized as a form of modern slavery.

    Eli Friedman, a China labor expert and associate professor of international and comparative labor at Cornell University’s ILR School, said Musk’s remark should be understood in the “broader context of American corporations taking advantage not just of the low cost of labor in China, but the flexibility”.

    For bosses like Musk, “that’s the comparative advantage: the fact that you have hundreds of thousands of workers that you can literally wake up in the middle of the night and put them on the production line,” Friedman said.

    “It’s tapping into a kind of Orientalist narrative about these kind of robotic Chinese workers who, [Musk] says in a sort of valorized way, that this is a good thing,” the researcher added.

    Officially, Chinese labor law mandates a 40-hour work week, with employees allowed up to 36 hours of overtime a month – which would come out to just over a 48-hour work week. But that’s not what happens in practice.

    “There’s no pretence anywhere that that’s enforced,” said Friedman. “Excessive overtime is kind of a built-in feature of the whole model of industrial development in China. Very long hours and compulsory overtime, while not legal, are also completely the norm. And this is done regularly in consultation with local governments who are also tasked with enforcing the labor law.”

    Employees in China are often asked to sign a “striver’s pledge” which waives their right to overtime pay and paid time off. And while many corporations in China have unions, the unions are funded by the employer, which makes them essentially powerless to negotiate against management, Friedman noted.

    Tesla did not respond to questions about its factory’s work hours and policies.

    China’s gruelling culture of extreme hours has been celebrated by tech billionaires in the country, including Alibaba’s Jack Ma, who has called the “996” system a “huge blessing”, and rival company JD.com’s Richard Liu, who has called workers who work fewer hours “slackers”.

    In recent years, a growing movement of Chinese workers has stood up to oppose overwork, with some activists using tools like GitHub to compile lists of Chinese companies accused of violating labor laws. Anger over the country’s extreme work culture intensified last January after a 22-year-old worker for Shanghai-based e-commerce firm Pinduoduo collapsed and died after leaving work at 1.30am, after a run of brutally long shifts.

    Incidents like these helped drive a trend among young Chinese social media users early last year promoting “tang ping”, or “lying flat” on the ground as a passive protest against work, which has since been restricted on the Chinese internet. Later in the year, China’s top court ruled that forced and excessive overtime was illegal, but the ruling has not been well enforced. Work stoppages, often unofficial “wildcat” strikes, continue to occur regularly in China.

    Chinese and American labor norms have clashed in recent years, as bosses pit teams against each other.

    The 2019 Netflix documentary “American Factory” described the conflicts that arose after a Chinese billionaire, Cao Dewang, opened a factory in an abandoned General Motors plant in Ohio. “American workers are not efficient, and output is low,” Cao complained at one point in the film. “I can’t manage them.”

    Last week, the Wall Street Journal revealed that some of the US-based employees at Chinese-owned TikTok were expected to pull back-to-back all-nighters and spend as many as 85 hours a week in meetings to keep up with their Chinese colleagues.

    In the United States, employees covered by the federal Fair Labor Standards Act must receive overtime pay for working more than 40 hours a week. But the law places no cap on the number of hours an employee can work.

    The grim backdrop to Musk’s comments is that “American workers are in a very subjugated position as well, unfortunately”, said Friedman.

    “The not-at-all subtle threat is that these Chinese workers are a threat to you white American workers. If you don’t meet that standard, then your jobs are on the line.”


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    Musk is no hero, he is an Oligarth, and an exploiter, and while his ideas might be good for the world, his practices are bad for it's people.

    Unionize, and tax the **** out of any imports that he has.

    DD
     
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  2. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    Time to boycott Apple again
     
  3. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Musk claims to work 100 hour weeks, and it can be 120 hour weeks during busy months. And he still finds time to tweet 50 times a day. Has he invented a time machine through which he has more than 24 hours a day at his disposal?
     
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  4. snowconeman22

    snowconeman22 Member

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    maybe he has someone running his twitter account , or a team even . Maybe he takes 20-30 seconds to tweet . Maybe he doesn’t work that much

    The fact that the economy is globalized to a certain extent .. and that you can’t control how another country treats its workers will lead to “situations” like this happening .

    a person brought up in the United States not at the very bottom of the chain can’t keep up with the willingness , mindset , and circumstance of a poor citizen of another country with a billion people . Or any other country where the quality of life isn’t as easy and / or the population density is extreme .

    US needs to work smarter not harder , but maybe harder too in some industries . Technology is driving production and profits .

    that’s the real issue we need to get around
     
  5. kubli9

    kubli9 Contributing Member
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    I would blame the Chinese government, how is it Elon's fault for the working conditions allowed in another country?
     
  6. JayGoogle

    JayGoogle Member

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    Elon is something else, a bit of a fraud to the people that think he's Tony Stark but he's the same as every other billionaire. Profit motive over everything else, no different from Bezos or Gates in that matter.

    The only real difference is he has tons more charisma than the other two and understands the internet and people a lot more while a lot of times other billionaires like Bezos, Gates, Zuckerberg, don't even seem human sometimes.

    Basically, he's a lot more relatable and marketable.
     
  7. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    He lies a lot about work according to my friend who works for him......he just decides to have a meeting and forces everyone to be available 24/7....

    If corporations move manufacturing, need to tax them for that. Give tax breaks to companies putting USA workers first.

    DD
     
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  8. marky :)

    marky :) Member

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  9. Jugdish

    Jugdish Member

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    Bill Gates is definitely the most human-seeming of the four.
     
  10. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    These guys are not meant to be worshipped or have their balls tickled by fame - I like a lot of what Elon wants to do, but he needs to be held accountable for his bullshit too.

    DD
     
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  11. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Dude is south African and his wealth is built by his father on Slave Labor
    and apartheid

    Why would anyone expect different?

    RocketRiver
     
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  12. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    Great point, I really wanted a Tesla, but I think I may get one of the other EV's now.

    DD
     
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  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I don't think Musk is a hero or a vilian. I do think he's brilliant and driven and he does ultimately believe in technology and science revolutionizing the human condition. Like many brilliant and driven people that rarely makes him pleasant to be around and also makes him someone who thinks he's right about most things and willing to throw both his opinion and money around.

    In other words perfect for the social media age.

    I think the worship of Musk is misplaced but so is a lot of the criticism of him. Like most things I think it's a matter of keeping perspective and understanding where his opinion might matter and where its probably best to ignore him.
    Now as a Tesla shareholder I just wish he would shut up for awhile and focus on growing Tesla...
     
  14. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    He isn't brilliant at all, he is an opportunist, and is great at producing narrative and riding the backs of very smart people, then taking the credit while driving talent out the door.

    His ideas are great, his drive is fake, he literally only works when he feels like it......and he is great at creating a false narrative and getting away with stock price manipulation. Many of the late night meetings are called because he has been out ****ing off, and knows that the narrative of a 1am meeting makes it look like he is always working. Very Trump like.

    And he is perfect for the shallow generation that doesn't want to look deeply into things or critically think.

    DD
     
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  15. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    WTF turned you from an entrepreneur into some wannabe woke "Unionize" freak lol :D.
     
  16. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    I am still an entreprenuer, and good at it, but I don't mind paying my taxes, and I think that our country will fail and fall because we have swung so far to the right that average people can't afford housing, or corporations are exploiting workers and it was in the 1950s we were at the height, and that was an 87% corporate tax rate, and unions had swung this country to where people like my father had a pension that he could afford to retire on.

    Now, people are in debt up to their ass after getting out of college.
    Congress has taken away savings and put retirement accounts into 401ks thus creating a false floor for the rich, and it isn't safe at all.
    People think that businesses are in it for their own good when most are out to exploit you because they can - and do - we are in Robber Barron era part 2.
    And our politicians are being flat out bribed.

    Our country will fall sooner than later if these things are not fixed........it is unsustainable and I want my kids to have a safe place to live.....

    Basically, I am a BIG PICTURE guy, and think beyond my own bank account......and I don't worship guys who got millions from momma and daddy by exploiting African workers.

    DD
     
    #16 DaDakota, May 12, 2022
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
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  17. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    You better leave @tinman’s boyfriend alone.
     
  18. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    That snitch ain’t coming near this thread…yet.:cool:
     
  19. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Contributing Member

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    This thread makes me feel dumb

     
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  20. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Contributing Member

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    The myth of the self made billionaire gets destroyed everytime one of these guys gets out from behind the curtain Oz style. All of these guys basically just got lucky and otherwise would be working at GameStop or managing a Starbucks.

    Where they succeed in the public eye though is as a salesperson. Elon is a much better sales person though than Zuck, Gates, Bezos, etc. Cuban is probably the sharpest billionaire out there in the fact that he’s the best sales person for himself.

    But even then the guy still is his own worse enemy. When he talks and just rambles on he’s just as likely to sound like a moron than a genius at any given moment. As primarily a salesperson right now his main focus is selling on the front of Twitter2023 and Tesla for red states. For Twitter 2023 he’s going to be hard pressed to ever meet the future worth of what he just overpaid for. I personally don’t think Twitter is the irreplaceable public utility some think it is. There’s enough time left where I think he’ll realize that and find an excuse to pull out.

    And on Tesla, I think the car brand has staying power but man competition is coming hard for Tesla. I’ve been to at least 3 car shows this past year and there’s so much more practical and affordable options coming I think American drivers will prefer over a Tesla. The Tesla stock isn’t plummeting in recent days for no reason.

    More than anything though the guy is simply an online troll. That seems to be his #1 hobby and if that’s the best you have to spend your time doing then you aren’t doing all that much in life.
     

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