So its women's hair that is tempting? That seems odd IMO. What is it about their hair that so concerns Islam?
Not all women in Islam do the veil or head covering thing though, right? I always thought it was more of a cultural thing, I see many Pakistani and Indian Muslim women here who don't wear one (I've met some who do) but alot of the Middle Eastern women I've come across do wear them
Its jsut a thing that adds to the beauty, how would you like a bald version of Jennfier aniston, Jlo, Pamela, your wife, girl etc etc
A very small percenteage, just a few sects, don't. However, they are still required to dress modestly. But for the rest, everyone has to cover their hair and body.
not wearing it is something some women think is not a big deal, wehn it actually is required. in some parts of india nonmuslim women wear headscarfs and veils too, so its just a thing of how much you want to put effort towards being a true follower of the religion.
This might totally be unrelated...but many Muslim countries (not all) don't allow women to own business or be seen by men other than their husbands. Then I read an article about how Mohammed's wife was actually a pretty good businesswoman and very well respected.
Mohd. worked for his wife for a couple of business dealings before they got married and she was 15 yrs OLDER than him.
So men decided that women are more beautiful with veils and/or covering over their hair? And now women have to do it. Not sure how that doesn't seem like patriarchal oppression to you. Again the women like it argument has serious problems because either men told the women God said they should cover up or they simply coerce them to do it under penalty. I am also interested to find out how much of the Muslim world practices this coercion. Sane seems to be indicating that most of it does practice this. That is disturbing.
Never said that women are more beautifiul in veils infact its the opposite, its to avoid the lust of another man. Most of the Middle east and Asia practices this, and so do many american muslims and european muslims...
It is a summation, and the believed intent, of several verses in Qur'an 9, for starters... 009.002 YUSUFALI: Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). SHAKIR: So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers. 009.003 YUSUFALI: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, SHAKIR: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve. 009.014 YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, PICKTHAL: Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers. SHAKIR: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people. and... 009.017 YUSUFALI: It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell. PICKTHAL: It is not for the idolaters to tend Allah's sanctuaries, bearing witness against themselves of disbelief. As for such, their works are vain and in the Fire they will abide. SHAKIR: The idolaters have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness to unbelief against themselves, these it is whose doings are null, and in the fire shall they abide. and... 009.023 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers. SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust. and... 009.026 YUSUFALI: But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith. PICKTHAL: Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers. SHAKIR: Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers. and... 009.029 YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. 009.030 YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! 009.031 YUSUFALI: They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). PICKTHAL: They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One Allah. There is no Allah save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)! SHAKIR: They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him). and... 009.034 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! there are indeed many among the priests and anchorites, who in Falsehood devour the substance of men and hinder (them) from the way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty- PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom, SHAKIR: O you who believe! most surely many of the doctors of law and the monks eat away the property of men falsely, and turn (them) from Allah's way; and (as for) those who hoard up gold and silver and do not spend it in Allah's way, announce to them a painful chastisement, and... 009.041 YUSUFALI: Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew. PICKTHAL: Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew. SHAKIR: Go forth light and heavy, and strive hard in Allah's way with your property and your persons; this is better for you, if you know. and... 009.049 YUSUFALI: Among them is (many) a man who says: "Grant me exemption and draw me not into trial." Have they not fallen into trial already? and indeed Hell surrounds the Unbelievers (on all sides). PICKTHAL: Of them is he who saith: Grant me leave (to stay at home) and tempt me not. Surely it is into temptation that they (thus) have fallen. Lo! hell verily is all around the disbelievers. SHAKIR: And among them there is he who says: Allow me and do not try me. Surely into trial have they already tumbled down, and most surely hell encompasses the unbelievers. and... 009.061 YUSUFALI: Among them are men who molest the Prophet and say, "He is (all) ear." Say, "He listens to what is best for you: he believes in Allah, has faith in the Believers, and is a Mercy to those of you who believe." But those who molest the Messenger will have a grievous penalty. PICKTHAL: And of them are those who vex the Prophet and say: He is only a hearer. Say: A hearer of good for you, who believeth in Allah and is true to the believers, and a mercy for such of you as believe. Those who vex the messenger of Allah, for them there is a painful doom. SHAKIR: And there are some of them who molest the Prophet and say: He is one who believes every thing that he hears; say: A hearer of good for you (who) believes in Allah and believes the faithful and a mercy for those of you who believe; and (as for) those who molest the Messenger of Allah, they shall have a painful punishment. and... 009.068 YUSUFALI: Allah hath promised the Hypocrites men and women, and the rejecters, of Faith, the fire of Hell: Therein shall they dwell: Sufficient is it for them: for them is the curse of Allah, and an enduring punishment[b/],- PICKTHAL: Allah promiseth the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers fire of hell for their abode. It will suffice them. Allah curseth them, and theirs is lasting torment. SHAKIR: Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment. and... 009.079 YUSUFALI: Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity, as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labour,- and throw ridicule on them,- Allah will throw back their ridicule on them: and they shall have a grievous penalty. PICKTHAL: Those who point at such of the believers as give the alms willingly and such as can find naught to give but their endeavours, and deride them - Allah (Himself) derideth them. Theirs will be a painful doom. SHAKIR: They who taunt those of the faithful who give their alms freely, and those who give to the extent of their earnings and scoff at them; Allah will pay them back their scoffing, and they shall have a painful chastisement. and... 009.082 YUSUFALI: Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do. PICKTHAL: Then let them laugh a little: they will weep much, as the reward of what they used to earn. SHAKIR: Therefore they shall laugh little and weep much as a recompense for what they earned. and... 009.113 YUSUFALI: It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire. PICKTHAL: It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire. SHAKIR: It is not (fit) for the Prophet and those who believe that they should ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even though they should be near relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are inmates of the flaming fire. and... 009.123 YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him. PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him). SHAKIR: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). There are several more implications of death to all non-believers (infidels), and encouragements to "fight" them in this chapter alone. The issue is that the hostility toward other religions is RIGHT THERE, especially Jews and Christians. This is in turn taken as "inciteful" and "urging" the 'believer' of Islam into a "state of readiness to execute the will of Allah." These scriptures are also widely understood as present tense in meaning, and lead to Jihad. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html Also in Qur'an chapter 4... 004.089 YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html There are other accepted translations available that provide insight on the topic as well. I don't think USC is a "predominatly Christian" university either. This (these) is(are) widely accepted "legit" translation(s). Not merely "Dawah." Which btw, if this religion is not to be "spread" or "forced" why then this? - Dawah Propagation of Islam through word and action, calling the people to follow the commandments of Allah and His Messenger Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.). I'm not at all mistaken in what I'm saying. There are Islamic websites that say admittedly that all of the "unconditional verses" must be taken just as written, and with no exceptions, meaning that they (Muslim believers worldwide) are called to an imminent Jihad, at one point or another.. in other words as soon as the individual believer sees the threat to Islam's spread (proliferation), they are to fight. If need be, to the death. The "use of force" if you will is justified if, when at the individual's judgement they see it as such, the "disbeliever" (Kafir or People of the Book that will not covert) is rejecting the teachings that Muhammed is the only Prophet and they do not accept that he had the final "update" to God's Word... The problem lies with this... If Muhammed is really the last and final Prophet of God, then why would Jesus say to John (the Revalator, while on the Isle of Patmos) this? Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I then, based on common sense alone, cannot begin to accept writings of a religion founded some 600+ years after Christ to be legitimate as "from God." However, I can believe that they were written to justify Muhammed's actions while driving out and killing anyone that hindered a way of life that did not want to be disturbed. Hence the claims in Qur'an 9 that the "disbelievers" had attacked them "first." Suspisciously there indeed. The origin of the word "Allah" comes literally from one of the Pagan gods, a "solar diety" in fact (ironic since the "crescent moon and star" symbol was installed as the calling card), that the Qur'an seems to despise. But ya'll don't want to go all the way there, so I'll stop. Also to discuss what someone mentioned about Zionists... Some definitions of Zionism are more extreme than others.... but seem to sadly ring true. Not all however are perverted by the power struggle... some merely believe in the God of Zion. Joel 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; (found in Judaic and Christian texts.) Generally when the Islamic world mentions a "Zionist" in a threatening tone, as in Saddam threatening Zionism... he means the former and not the latter (linked) definition. (*interesting btw how the linked page pretty much describes that there is a faction of revisionists in the world seeking to discredit, or lessen, the holocaust... which is what this thread is about.) To exactly what depth shall we dig, oh ye' scholars of religious antiquity?
I don't find the word "fable" to be inflammatory. The Bible, Koran, Torah, and other holy texts are really just collections of stories (synonym for "fable") that have been inspired by the divine. Most of them have very clear morals (as did Aesop's collection of stories) that most people would be better off heeding. I believe that Mohammed, like Jesus, Buddha, and many others through the ages, was a great prophet who had an undeniable and very clear connection with his higher power. Further, he devoted much of his life to passing the messages of his higher power to others through his writings, as have many other prophets throughout history. The only thing I would caution anybody in relation to these holy texts is to not take everything literally as they were written through the filter of the author's experiences, which undeniably puts a slant on the information.
I was taught that Jewish women at the time of Jesus birth were required to crop their hair for the same reasons. Mary, the mother of Jesus, also cropped her hair. The long beautiful hair you always see her pictured with is a cultured myth.
go back and read through Christ's words in the Gospels. he talks more of Hell than he does of Heaven. he speaks more of judgment...and talks about how difficult it is to find salvation. "straight and narrow is the path..." etc. i think we tend to "water down" Jesus, sometimes. but Christians believe he went to the cross for a reason...that eternity without God isn't pleasant. and that we, on our own, fall woefully short in efforts to make our own salvation. and so he was laid down as a sacrifice for us. that's at the very heart of Christian theology...and it all starts with the assumption that sin has us broken, and that our commitment to ourselves instead of to God leaves us outside of God's grace.
1. Your analysis is very common. We hear that a ton today...we're all worshipping the same God, etc. But very clearly Jesus Christ (as he's presented in the Gospels) and Mohammed point to very different attributes about God. Very different characteristics. If you believe Jesus Christ to be the very Son of God...to be part of a trinitarian God...that instantly conflicts with someone like Sane who believes very much in the oneness/unity of God. And then we look at character attributes. Buddhism points not to a Creator...but ultimately has you engaged in idol worship, at least in some forms and in some parts of the world. That concept would be beyond offensive for Christians and Muslims alike. And Christians look at the 8-fold path and say, "hey...I can't EARN my way towards salvation...towards God's favor...I'm just thankful Christ paid the price for me, because ultimately I fall way short of God's grace on my own." That is ENTIRELY different than what Buddha or Mohammed would say. Entirely different. So how then can they be revelations of the same God? Is God just inconsistent? Is He so inconsistent as to tell some He really doesn't exist as a being....and tell others that we're created in His own image? I think there are real differences. We tend to mask all differences to make peace. But that really doesn't work. Respect, in spite of our disagreements, does. And then real dialogue can occur. Sane and I have had our differences here...but I respect him. 2. not everyone who writes a book in the Bible is a prophet. Luke presents himself merely as a historian. Acts reads not like a typical religious text, but rather as an account of the early church after Christ's death. there are the prophet texts in the Old Testament...and there is certainly prophecy from Christ of what's to come...and then we have the Revelation. but most of the New Testament is a chronicle of Christ's life followed by letters among early Christians. Christians believe those to be divinely inspired...more than just words on paper.
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. It seems that God makes it very easy to find salvation.
are you asking me to go find scripture to back up my points?? i'll do that if you'd like. by the way, though... 1. you're ignoring the way God's grace flowed to people in the Old Testament who were seemingly undeserving...King David comes to mind, right off the bat. 2. the Old Testament clearly sets up the need for a savior. with that, I'll wholly agree. the law takes shape and is done in a rote sort of way. and then you have the Book of Isaiah, where God says, "hey..stop it already! you guys bring me these worthless sacrifices where your heart isn't involved at all! i'm God! i'm not the wooden statue you guys messed with...I freaking created the trees that the wooden statue was made from! you want to know what pleases me? your hearts turned over to me." But sin kept getting in the way...generation after generation. And a pure, holy God chose to redeem the world through Christ. But following Christ isn't just some mental assent. "Ok..I believe..I'm saved..woooo hoooo!!!" The New Testament makes that point very clear as well. It's a change of heart...a new birth...a new creation that you become. and i'm rambling!
WOW! I just want to say WOW. This is why this site is absolutely the best site in the history of sites. Seriously, we might disagree but we respect each others opinions. (for the most part) Sane, Mad Max ... Great discussions!
I'll second that BigBoy. You'll find that its true of most discussions that Max has a passion about. If anyone had told me i'd be reading, with interest and anticipation, discussions on religion, or abortion posted by a self-proclamed 'Jesus Freak' (your words, Max -- no offense meant ), i'd have told them they were nuts! Yet here i am. Sane's done a great job of expaining his view too. Shows you what's possible with civil discourse!
