I see, that's good stuff. But when you say "accurate", how accurate are we talking about? Are you saying even the most accurate pieces are not 100% but 99%, or are you saying that it's pretty much 100%?
you mean how accurate are the copies to the extant manuscripts?? there are tons of articles on this done not just by Christians but by secular historians....the accuracy is as good or better than with any historical documents we have from generation to generation.
Sane, I have enjoyed your comments throughout this thread. I am a Christian but like to understand as much as possible about other religions. I find it facinating. The question that I have is why should the woman bear all of the sin? Yes there are temptations out there but you cannot hide from them all. If you are faced with a temptation, I believe it is how you react to it versus avoiding it. I am no saint by any means so I use my faith as a way to reject the temptations. I think the more you deal with the temptations the easier it becomes to turn away from it. Kind of like when you work out. The more you work out the easier it is to lift the weights.
Sane, How you react to temptations is what makes you a human being. Man or women. Why aren't men covered up then? Why only women? Ridiculous...... And, nuns are holy women, NOT EVERY DAY PEOPLE ON THE STREET !!!! Not that I think Nuns should cover up, just pointing out that you are comparing apples to oranges. Religion should be seperated from government. All religion was written by man and is therefore fallable. Fables people...fables. DD
this is what i'm talking about, DD. what part is fable? the parts you don't like? you say you believe there is a God, but that religion is crap. fine. in part, i would agree. but where do you draw the line? do you find it completely impossible that God may have reached out to people through the centuries...that He may have inspired people to write certain things about Him? is that completely beyond the realm of possibility? i'm not muslim..obviously. so i don't have much stake in this argument. but it seems as if Sane is sharing what he believes and you're just poking at him for it. i think that sucks, frankly. look at the difference in the tone of your post from that of MB right before it. see a difference? respect is a good thing. you don't have to agree with Sane. or me. or anyone. but how about showing some level of respect instead of scoffing at the beliefs the guy holds dearest to him?
I see what DD is getting at. The Bible, Korna, Torah, writings of Buddha, and all of the other "holy books" were no doubt inspired by the divine, as I believe everything in this world is. However, you have to take those writings and interpret them for yourself, as the authors did before they wrote them. All of the "holy books" were colored by the experiences the authors lived through and the challenges they had to face. For me, there is one pervasive message in every single religion, it is just called different things. Buddhism talks of Karma, Christianity teaches "The Golden Rule," and even Wiccans believe in something they refer to as "thrice good, thrice bad." No matter the dogma, all of these belief systems at their root have this fundamental truth built in somewhere: What you do, good or bad, will be returned to you in one form or another. There are other such messages common to many religions, but to find these (as I call them) "universal truths," it is useful to study many religions rather than just one. This isn't to say that a devout Christian (or Muslim, Jew, or Buddhist) cannot have a fulfilling relationship with their higher power without such study, but personally, I have found this study EXTREMELY helpful in developing my relationship with God. As far as the "fables," that DD brought up, I think that anyone who takes any of these texts literally is doing themselves a disservice as we can see in the Bible in Leviticus. I believe that everyone is obligated to read these texts with a critical eye and analyze the information presented for relevance in today's world.
andy - this isn't really the point of my posts...but i'll bite. the character of God...the nature of God...is different. it's most similar in Judaism and Christianity. Hell, I'm an Irishman who believes in the Hebrew God! Who worships that God. I think it is simply a gloss-over to say we're all doing the same thing. Are there points of different religions I find admirable? Sure. But that's people-centric viewpoint...not God-centric. Just my two cents. In the end, though...however much I may disagree with Sane about the character of God...or the nature of God...i'm not about to scream "fable", throw out inflammatory labels about a man who he reveres as a prophet, and essentially pick at his beliefs. Honest, thoughtful and tactful debate? Fine. But not this. Not when the subject is a man's faith.
On days where I am really hungry, I believe that all frozen pizzas at the grocery store should wear veils. They can still be eaten, but they must dress appropriately to curtail my temptation to eat all of them (after adding extra cheese and jalapenos, of course). I find frozen pizza very fulfilling, and it is difficult for me to believe that the ingredients in something so satisfying are not divine. It's like the secret to eternal happiness, spelled out right there on the nutrition label. So, I believe the list of ingredients, being divinely inspired, should be read aloud and with great respect by all who will partake of the formerly-veiled formerly-frozen pizza. I really like frozen pizza a lot. It's delicious, especially after one adds extra cheese and jalapenos.
A few points: 1. If context is so important to understanding the Christian Bible and the quotes used by blackfish, why are some unwilling to offer the same courtesy to the Quranic quotes? 2. IROCit - prove the "death to the infidels" line. Find the quote. 3. Sane is not the only Muslim, just the most visible. Please remember that there are variants in Islam as there are in other faiths. I, for instance, agree with some of the things he says and disagree with others. In either case, I respect what he says. It is religion, after all. 4. Someone mentioned that the Islamic concept of "People of the Book" includes Christians and Jews. Remember that. This group does not overlap with "infidels". 5. Please explain the Spanish Reconquista. 6. DD, my man, I think we get it. You find religion to be a waste of time. That's cool. We understand. Do you need to reiterate this point time and time again while demeaning other people? 7. While women may have to cover themselves (again, this is a point of difference among Islamic sects), so do men. Modesty is of the utmost importance. Men don't need to cover their heads, etc., yes, that's true. I won't argue that point - but please see that it's not like men are allowed to walk around naked while women must be fully covered. I know of people who believe shorts are illegal in Islam (for men and women). 8. There have been periods when Muslim lands have been the most tolerant in the world. I believe that Jewish and Christian people held high posts during the Fatimid empire, but I'm no expert. 9. Don't confuse Zionism and Judaism... which also means you should not confuse anti-Zionism with Islam. If you don't know what I'm saying, you're making my point for me.
Really? To me it seems like the God in the old testament and the God in the Koran are much closer in character than the God we see in the new testament. The Hebrew God and Allah are both wrathful and vengeful. Plenty of killing of non-believers and conversions at the tip of a sword. The God that is seen in the New Testament is a loving and forgiving God. He is all about accepting everyone, even those who believe differently. Jesus is hanging around with the harlots and the degenerates and even asks that the people who are killing him be forgiven. Does that seem the same as the God who rained down fire on Egypt, turned people into pillars of salt, etc.?
Well, the women bears the sin because she can actually avoid the temptation, while a man can't. No matter how much you try, you will be tempted. It's not something that differs with personality (unless you're a homosexual), men like to "see" women. But the woman CAN do something about it. It's not like we're wrapping women up in blankets or anything. Serisously, you realize how insignificant it is when you see it with your own eyes. Women used to wear shalls all the time in the past, even now, some people like to wear it just for the hell of it. Ofcourse, you cannot hide from all temptations, but you do your best. Just like you cannot hide from your destiny, but that doesn't mean you bum around because what's done is done... you do your best, you try your hardest.
Holy cow! (no pun intended) I guess I need to go back and start reading this thread from scratch. I thought we had it knocked with, "the guy is a racist idiot!" ...or something along those lines. Obviously, this has gotten off in some other direction. Cool!
married a 9 yr old yes, she lived at her fathers house, and the PROPHET(NOT GOD) didnt even touch her till she was 13, and other than our society, many societies consider that old enough for a girl to be matured and get married. I dont insult your parents, family, friends. and i would appreciate it if you did the same to others. Because Mohammed pbuh, is in many ways regarded as much more than you do for your family, friends etc.
And by the way about the veil thing, the requirement is that a women cover her hair, to her ankles, and only her face can be shown, and a man the cover is from the belly button down to the knees, and MOST women do the veil thing as a personal security thing, i know because my Mother does it. so its an opinion thing, and even in saudi arabia, a veil isnt required, just a headscarf and a cover over the body, I would know, i was jsut there 2 weeks ago...
How you react to a veiled woman will really tell who you are, not how you react to a half-naked woman. Men don't cover up, but there are certain rules. Nothing above your knees, never walk around without a shirt, don't wear any shorts or pants that are too tight. I'm not really sure about sleevless and tight shirts. All women, every single one of them, are considered sacred in Islam. To me, for the things they are asked to do, they are all holy women (not taking ANYTHING away from nuns). Religion was put on paper by man, but they aren't the words of man.
true, the veil is not required anywhere. Women cover everything except their face, up to their ankles and wrists. It's important that the hair doesn't slip out of the shall.
Ladies and gentlemen, here are the results of the Western world degrading the meaning and value of sex.
