As Norm McDonald would say, "Or so Frank Stalone would have us believe..." Or he'd just call someone a giant w****. God I miss that guy. Dirty Work was underrated.
Yes Bush is wrong on this. He was surely advised as much. And yes I will condemn any violent actions by any religious group, Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Smurf or Jedi. Will you read my post, and the 9/11 report? Read what I say. Not what you think I say just because I may vote differently than you. Are you saying that the 9/11 commission is partisan? Or racist? Or religiously biased? Exactly where did I say I oppose "their existence?" No where close. They teach that all non-Muslims should be destroyed if not assimilated. That's aimed toward any non-Muslim. Have you read the Koran (Qur'an)? Or the Hadith? Or the Sufi texts? Or any of them? Where did you miss the inclusion of any non-believer of Islam as a "Infidel?" Where did you ever see that all non-believers are to be either assimilated or put to death? And before death, "the spoils (booty)" is to be collected for a tribute to Allah? I find nothing in that speech that indicates my problem with another belief's existence... rather toward me unless I A) assimilate, or B) die. Research. Rediscover. Recycle.
Irocit. I have a limited understanding of Islam, but even the little bit of study that I have done is enough to know that you have an incredibly deficient knowledge of the religion. I actually have read translations of the Koran, and various other books pertaining to Islam. Islam does not teach that all other religions should assimilate or die. True there are extremists who do believe that way, but the majority don't(thank goodness.) There are examples in the bible where God orders his followers to march into towns and kill them all because they are non-believers. Thank goodness that not every Christian follows that example. I'm also happy that people who are ignorant about the tenants of Christianity don't usually try and portray the Christian religion as following that kind of doctorine. Sadly some people like, Iroc it who are ignorant of the tenants of Islam do try and portray the religion in a way that is not accurate. I've recommended books, and pointed to statements from Muslims that condemn the brand of Islam Irocit is talking about, but if people don't want to open their eyes, then they won't see.
i think its rather problematic to assume that a faith that is based on based to be one that wants non-believers to be killed. I think you are mixing up the ideals of the religion with the ideals of the people (notice, people and religion are seperate things) who pervert the message to legitimize destruction. In fact, i think you are trying to pervert the message of the religion to support your belief that others are a threat to you. believers of many religions pervert their ideas to legitimize their elitism and the destruction of those who believe differently. Likewise, many who don't follow the faith will use the same reasoning to conjure up a world where they are the victim from others that are evil. Makes you feel good, huh, that you are the better person? that you are the one who isn't evil? This is not uncommon, some muslim extremists use the same 'logic' against christianity. its obvious that your knowledge of islam comes from people that already oppose it. I hope one day, when you are in need, and a person of a different faith helps you out, you can let go of your hate and distrust.
Hey is this true...I remember reading somewhere that not only is it a crime within Germany, but that if somebody denies such elsewhere in the world and then later visits Germany they will be picked up and charged?
I guess that concentration camp I visited in Austria, called Mauthausen, where in their museum had a pile of eyeglasses worn by the deceased that was 8 feet high, was really an amusement park during World War II.
a couple of years ago i went to the holocaust museum in Israel, that is very emotional. we went with a group of about 20, when we went out of the museum nobody speaked for about 45 minutes. we al just sat there. I think no religion is better then the other. if people find peace of mind with there religion it is great for them. I'm not religious but i respect everybody's opinion on religion. But i expect that people also respect the fact that i'm not religious. Almost every religion has had a history of violance. No religion is violant. Only the extremistic people get violant. And those people give other people with the same religion a bad name. But like i said all religions have had a history of violance and murder. But that does not make that religion violant it makes the people who did those crimes Violant.
oh my...wow. just the thought of that is chilling. my wife went to the holocaust museum in D.C. and said she cried like a baby through the whole thing. staring evil in the eye.
You're either lying or have been lied to. The translation of "infidels" is not "those who don't believe in Islam." This is why Islam should not be translated. How could what you're saying be true if it's allowed for a Muslim to marry a Christian woman? How is it that they execute people in Saudi for various crimes, and chop off hands for theft... But they allow Christians there? Is there anything forbidden in the Qura'an that is not forbidden in Saudi? How is it that Jews, defeated in war, were allowed to live on Muslim land? Yes, they payed taxes, but they lived. The Qura'an was not meant to be translated. It's not meant to be touched. Nothing. That's why the exact same letter with the exact same pronounciation (there are pronounciation characters in Arabic) that were used back when it was written is identical to that which we read today. Personally, I don't think that any non-Muslim should read a translated Qura'an, because their understanding of the entire religion is much too weak (barring exceptions) to be able to accurately interpret a translation. I suggest you listen to someone whom YOU, personally, trust 100% to give you the facts face to face right from an original Qura'an. But that is, ofcourse, just my suggestion. As for this topic, it's quite silly. Some idiot says he thinks it's a lie.. What does that have to do with Islam? The sample doesn't represent the population.
Sure, that's it. Discount everything my cousin relayed to me directly while he was serving in the middle east, and then in Bosnia. I've got no "hidden agenda." Just call me a "liberal" in my view here. I will liberally blow this whistle until someone gets it. PROVE IT. It means "non-believers." Why hide the truth? What does infidels mean then? That is a hidden agenda. In the U.S.? Because it's the U.S. Won't happen in the middle east. Christian does not mean simply "non-Jewish or non-Muslim." Maybe you mean "european?" Just try walking in and selling Bibles there... try it. You can be imprisoned for "crossing" your legs in the sign of a cross, carrying a Swiss Army knife, and airplanes are not allowed to fly over a mosque at the time of day that would cast a cross-like shadow on one. People have been beaten, and executed for teaching Christianity in Saudi. During the Gulf War, the Saudi govt. had a fit that the U.S. soldiers stationed there were issued personal pocket New Testaments... and regulated that Soldiers leaving the compound to visit the cities could not take it into the city. You tell me. "they payed taxes" is your answer... spoils of war, aka booty (look it up in the Qur'an). Then why are there english translations? Why is it being spread throughout the world? This claim is ignorant. Sorry, but it is. I have. I have spoken directly with my best friends from high school, and their father (grad in '91 btw) recently enough to know that after 20 years of Muslim practices, they are denouncing it having seen this teaching being more to the forefront, even state-side. I have also studied it in college, and for myself so that I am well aware of the true teaching of a religion that is called "Peace" when translated, yet was founded by a warlord. It's quite true what I speak. Muhammed was no Ghandi. The point is that it is a heavily circulated paper known as "THE ISLAMIC BANNER" which is sorta like the NEW YORK TIMES in circulation there. This is a very valid concern.. What you fail to see hear is that this IS NOT merely an Islam vs. Christianity issue... It is Islam vs. any other view. Again... no matter what your belief... Wake up.
double. sorry. but... MOSQUE RAID... I thought the religion was peaceful? Mosque Raid Sends Deterrent Message to Terrorists By Donna Miles American Forces Press Service WASHINGTON, Aug. 5, 2004 — Justice Department officials said today they hope today's raid on a mosque in Albany, N.Y., will serve as a deterrent to terrorists planning attacks against U.S. citizens and targets. Two men were arrested during the raid on the Masjid As-Salam mosque and charged with agreeing to launder money so an undercover FBI operative could buy a shoulder-fired, rocket-propelled weapon, Deputy U.S. Attorney General James B. Comey told reporters during a news conference in Washington. Comey said the men arrested — Yasin Aref, the mosque's imam, and Mohammad Hoosain, its founder — understood that the weapon was to be used against the Pakistani ambassador in New York in retaliation for that country's support for the war on terrorism. The missile actually was owned by the U.S. government, Comey said, and that there never was any danger of it falling into enemy hands or being used against the Pakistani ambassador or anyone else. "This was our missile, and this was a sting," he said. Comey dismissed charges that the sting represented entrapment. "There is always an opportunity for the defense to talk about entrapment," he said. "That's what trials are for." While not offering details, Comey said the operation followed a year-long investigation that fingered Aref and Hoosain as supporters of terrorism. He said the two met numerous times with the undercover operative before their arrest. Comey said the arrests are unrelated to the heightened alert status in New York City, northern New Jersey and Washington, D.C., announced Aug. 1. Acknowledging that it's "not the case of the century," he called the case against Aref and Hoosain "a good case, a solid case that sends an important message." The goal of the raid and subsequent arrests, he said, was "to lock up two guys who committed crimes." But Comey said he's hopeful that they also "send a broader, deterrent message" that causes anyone planning a terrorist plot to question if any accomplice they deal with is actually an undercover U.S. agent. "We want the bad guys to worry about us," he said. Earlier today, New York Gov. George E. Pataki said the raid provides further evidence that "there are terrorists among us who want to engage in attacks against us and take away our freedoms." He publicly thanked the private citizens whose tips to official hotlines helped lead to the arrests. Protecting the United States "depends on the eyes and ears of all Americans," he said, and he urged the public to continue reporting suspicious activities to authorities. Pataki said the arrests reflect the strong cooperation among law enforcement and intelligence agencies at the federal, state and local levels. "People should feel positive about this," he said. "Our government, our administration in Washington … and local officials are taking this threat to our freedom very seriously and will continue to be aggressive and proactive against those who wish to do us harm. "We will continue to be proactive and vigilant," he said. "We have to be. And we won't stop until our freedom is protected." --- Funny.. I think these guys arrested were part of the "Peace" religion.
Once again Irocit manages to confuse peoples actions with the relgion in general. When Christians were committing genocide against Muslims in Eastern Europe those people were wrong. It didn't mean that Christianity was wrong. When Christians recently went and slaughtered a whole village in Africa using machetes, and muskets, it doesn't mean that Christianity is wrong, just that those who misuse it. The same is true for Islam. When Christians kill doctors and people entering abortion clinics, it doesn't mean Christianity is wrong, just the people who commit the acts. Hopefully one day you will understand people may do one thing in the name of a religion, that the religion doesn't teach. Fortunately in the case of Muslim clerics there are many Muslims speaking out against the Islamic terrorists, but evidently you've shut your ears to that, and your eyes to numerous books written by Muslims denouncing the way these extremists practice Islam.
double. sorry. but... ABORTION CLINIC BOMBING I thought the religion was peaceful? Accused Bomber Eric Rudolph Linked to Fringe Groups By Lee Webb CBN News Anchor June 2, 2003 Eric Robert Rudolph, in custody for the 1996 Olympic bombing and two others, has been tied to the white supremacist Christian Identity movement, and a violent fringe organization called the Army of God. CBN.com – Over the weekend, a young cop in Murphy, North Carolina arrested Eric Robert Rudolph, ending a massive manhunt that had lasted years and nabbing one of the FBI's most wanted fugitives. A loner and survivalist, Rudolph is accused of the Olympic bombing in Atlanta in 1996, as well as the later bombings of a gay nightclub and a Birmingham abortion clinic. Two people were killed, one was maimed and more than a hundred were injured in those attacks. Evidence links Rudolph to the crimes and authorities suspect his motives lie in his ties to a white supremacist group called Christian Identity and a fringe group known as the Army of God. The Army of God claimed responsibility for both the abortion clinic bombing and the bombing of an office building in the Atlanta area. Rudolph was tied to those bombings through supplies found in a storage unit he rented. Rudolph's connection to the Army of God began with his mother in 1984. When he was 18 she took him and his brother Jamie to a cult-like compound in North Carolina called the Church of Israel. Both boys attended school at the compound and some say Rudolph developed his political views at the school -- becoming engrossed in the curriculum's required reading, which included holocaust-denial materials. While the ideology of the Christian Identity movement may be called Christian, in reality it is anything but. Instead, its theological beliefs are a sinister brew of white supremacist and anti-Semitic rhetoric. It is a loosely organized group that traces its roots to the British-Israel movement in Europe in the mid-19th century. Followers believed that white Anglo-Saxons were the lost tribes of Israel and therefore God's true chosen people. By the 1930's the movement had migrated to the United States. Many new members were also members of the Ku Klux Klan and the group began to adopt more racist and white supremacist ideas. It also began to use violence to achieve its ends. Christian Identity believes the Bible teaches that there are two separate lineages from which all people are descended. According to their teaching, the Jewish people descended from a union between Eve and Satan and only white people are the true descendants of Adam and Eve. One leader in the Army of God movement told CBN News it is not so much an organization as it is a belief system. He backed the bombing of abortion clinics, saying it is the responsibility of all Christians to defend the unborn by whatever means necessary. The Army of God manifesto has detailed bomb-making instructions. Attorney General John Ashcroft has branded many such groups domestic terrorists and on Saturday he called Eric Rudolph, "The most notorious American fugitive on the FBI's most wanted list." He also said Rudolph's arrest sends a clear message that the U.S. will not cease to hunt down all terrorists foreign and domestic and stop them from harming the innocent. Funny.. I think these guys arrested were part of the "Peace" religion.
Islam translated means "peace." Christianity does not. And again, this is about any religion vs. Islam.... that as i stated in the beginning of the thread... "some" btw- my initial doble post was an inadvertant reply to myself rather than an edit... call it an "IROCitism"...I'm an admin can verify if neec be... I could have taken that part out, but surely enough, my hunch that I'd be mocked for it by a leftist nutjob was right.. So sad. That would indicate both A) some are peaceful and B) some are revisionists... Clutch was right.... what is it with the word "some?" Sorry to be right about my lack of generalizing in the severity and broad brush as you've claimed.... pointing out what a text - a basis of teaching - says does not = claiming that 100% go there... However, no where did Buddha, or Krishna, or Moses, or Christ, or Dali Llama say "death to infidels" - that was Muhammed. So then, the tendency, or I'd say the possibility for one to hear this teaching, and later act on it is far greater in Islam than in ANY other belief system. Can that be argued? Not really.
There are just as many violent verses in the Qur'an as there are in the Bible. The thing about religion is that people can misconstrue it in any way they want to justify evil deeds. Islam is going through a tough time, in which the actions of a few are giving the 1.5 billion Muslims WW a bad name. I invite you to spend some time at your local mosque and get to know Muslims in your community, and arrive at your own conclusion, instead of being spoonfed by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
You attend the Mosque in Plano? btw- I listen to niether of those two. I prefer what the Islamic texts, 9/11 report and the national media tell me about this. It's called putting 2 and 2 together. It's cognitive, and requires brave effort to achieve. Try to stop being spoonfed by cynisism and mockery and find out for yourself...
You said: "However, no where did Buddha, or Krishna, or Moses, or Christ, or Dali Llama say "death to infidels" - that was Muhammed." You're partially right...the Bible never specifically said Death to Infidels. But it does say: Then the LORD said: 1. I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. Obey what I command you today. 2. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 4. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles [That is, symbols of the goddess Asherah]. 5. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. 6. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 7. And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same. Somewhat exclusionist, in my book...Nothing will be solved by searching for ‘true Islam’ or quoting the Qur'an. The Qur'an is a vast, vague book, filled with poetry and contradictions (much like the Bible). You can find in it condemnations of war and incitements to struggle, beautiful expressions of tolerance and stern pictures against unbelievers. Quotations from it usually tell us more about the person who selected the passages than about Islam. Every religion is compatible with the best and the worst of humankind. Through its long history, Christianity has supported inquisitions and anti-Semitism, but also human rights and social welfare. There are many forms of violence, and justg because there is no direct command to kill the infidels doesn't mean Christianity is any less violent (at least how many choose to interpret it--I prefer to think of it as a beautiful idea gone awry)The potential of the Bible to instigate violence stems, in large part, from its claims that God committed or ordered violent and cruel acts, while at the same time the book describes him as perfect, righteous, just, gracious,merciful, compassionate and loving. Because of the belief that God possesses exemplary characteristics but still carries out or mandates extremely violent and destructive acts, there is a strong possibility that his followers will decide they can behave similarly and still be good people. They may even conclude that they have a religious duty to follow the violent example set by their God. The God of the Bible is guilty of wartime atrocities. After bringing the Israelites out of captivity in Egypt and having them wander in the wilderness a number of years, he ordered them to attack King Sihon of Heshbon and his subjects. As a result, they "put to death everyone in the cities, men, women, and dependents" and "left no survivor." Then God told them to do the same to King Og of Bashan and his people. Thus, the Israelites "slaughtered them and left no survivor." The book of Psalms cites these specific massacres as proof that the Lord's "love endures for ever." At the Lord's command, the Israelites made war on Midian and slew all the men and burned their cities. But Moses was angry because they had spared the women and children. So he ordered his soldiers to "kill every male dependent, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with a man, but spare for yourselves every woman among them who has not had intercourse." Shortly thereafter, God gave Moses directions for distributing the captive virgins among the fighting men and the community. In resettling the Israelites after the Egyptian sojourn, God instructed them to steal the land of seven nations. In doing so, they were to "not leave any creature alive. You shall annihilate them. . . ." Consequently, the Israelites entirely wiped out various peoples, such as when Joshua's army attacked Jericho and "put everyone to the sword, men and women, young and old. . . ." Later, the Lord told Joshua to do the same to the people of Ai. In obedience to the Lord's commands, Joshua's army did likewise to many other cities. The Israelites "put every living soul to the sword until they had destroyed every one; they did not leave alive any one that drew breath." If the accounts given in the Bible are accepted, there were millions of men, women and children exterminated in this conquest of the Promised Land. Additional Old Testament stories relate divine acts that are just as ruthless. The prophet Samuel gave Saul these instructions from the Lord: "Go now and fall upon the Amalekites and destroy them. . . . Spare no one; put them all to death, men and women, children and babes in arms, herds and flocks, camels and asses." I could go on and on...the Biblical God condones, commits or commands murder, plundering, mutilation, cannibalism, rape, slavery, war, torture.... Civilized societies adhere to a much higher ethical standard than does the biblical God. They know that violence does not prove who is right, but only who is stronger. They also recognize that the validity of an argument depends on the quality of the evidence and logic that supports it - and not at all on the amount of violence that proponents of the argument can inflict. In fact, a resort to violence usually means the proponents know they cannot win with arguments. Moreover, enlightened societies realize that gratuitous violence by society's leaders and other role models can, by dint of example, promote more violence in the rest of society. And they understand that people can become desensitized to the sight of violence and thus come to use and tolerate ever-greater amounts of it. So while The Koran may say Death to the Infidels....the Bible more roundabout suggestions on how to deal with the world's problems are no less harmful. Blackfish
Where does this indicate death? Furthermore, where did it say God killed them either? "Drive out?" I think you've proven nothing... except... Ahhh. But it does.
Are you truly so blind as to think that 'driving out" other religions and races means politely asking them to leave, and here's a jumbo pack of twinkies for the road? It's death, torture and destruction to the non-believers...with warnings not to associate with them, to persecute their religious beliefs (why else smash thier altars? To make room for the swimming pool?) And the examples I quoted (did you even read them?)were the tip of the iceberg in terms of commanding folowers to smite the non-believers. If one reads the Bible and sees God commanding and condoning this behavior, then how is it any different, if simply less direct, than saying death to the infidels? It's semantics. Neither religion is all inclusive. There are heathens and infidels that must be conquered--in both texts they are given different names, is all. Blackfish
