It's not slang, slang is terms such as "holla back, can you dig it, or whatever. I would say its more equivalent to what some people call spanglish. Its cultural based. I'm not arguing that it should be taught or addressed in schools, because I think that isn't the problem in some schools but it is cultural based. Given that a lot of blacks who have problems with the English language come from homes where no one has ever received adequate education, going back generations, its cultural based. Its easy to say its based in laziness (I know you didn't) but its really just based in poverty and a lack of education that goes generations back.
FB showed one incomplete example, but I am still not satisfied. Since I really want to see what a grammatically incorrect Ebonic sentence may look like, I googled a bit to find this: According to John Rickford, a Professor of Linguistics at Stanford University (http://www.stanford.edu/~rickford/ebonics/EbonicsExamples.html): "Although AAVE [Ebonics] does have some distinctive lexical items ..., much of what people know from rap and hip hop and other popular Black culture is slang, young people's vocabulary... becoming almost an icon of youth culture itself. The heart of AAVE, the part that is shared across most age groups (although they tend to be used most frequently by teenagers) and that link it most strongly to the language's origins in the creole speech of slavery (compare parallels with creole dialects in the Caribbean today or in Hawaii), is its phonology and grammar... The single biggest mistake people make about AAVE is dismissing it as careless, or lazy speech, where anything goes. As with all spoken languages, AAVE is extremely regular, rule-governed, and systematic." As it is pointed out by linguists, the purpose of "teaching" Ebonics in classroom is not for propagating its use, but rather for facilitating the transition to standard English.
And this is based on what studies and experiences? Sadly like many you are speaking without knowing the facts. I do agree with you that it holds back those that can't use academic English. That is the point of the whole program. I also agree that it isn't its own language, but it does have its own linguistic structure.
There are big misconceptions here. Nobody is suggesting that it should be allowed for ebonics to replace standard academic English in the classroom. It appears they want to classify these students as English learners to provide them additional help in acquiring Academic English. People hear ebonics and get freaked out. They start assuming that people are asking for students to be allowed to abandon academic English and that ebonics should be considered as acceptable speech inside of a classroom environment. The idea is to not do, as some have done in this thread and assume students who use ebonics are stupid or lazy. The idea is to know what needs to be done to help them acquire standard English. When they go home they aren't using standard English, and school is where it will be modeled for them. But the fact that the language does have a structure and that structure is already taught to children before ever attending school is something to address. If a student is seen as lazy because of use of ebonics, but is really gifted in Math and Science but isn't challenged by the material he receives because he is in remedial classes, then education is failing that student. If we see that he has trouble acquiring standard academic English but is advanced in his understanding of Math and Science concepts he shouldn't be held back in those areas. It is a matter of being better able to teach, not about replacing academic English with Ebonics.
That isn't the purpose of this program or any other program. The purpose is to be able more properly assess students and help them to acquire academic English.
I am Chinese. Manadarin was my first language. I did not speak English at home. By the time I was 7, I spoke perfect English. In fact, I was in AP English in high school. There are millions like me. Second-generation Latinos and Asians pretty much speak perfect English despite the fact that English is not the promary language spoken at home. The thought of an Ebonics program not only degrades what millions of immigrant children have done in the US - but it also degrades the black child. Ultimately - it legitimizes something that should probably be eliminated. I know that is probably the goal - but it just seems like a poor way to achieve that goal.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Good post. Even if the kid is a mathematical genius, do you think he's going to get into an Ivy League school by filling out his application in ebonics? Do you think he's going to get his foot in the door at an engineering firm by speaking in ebonics during the interview? Schools are supposed to prepare kids for the real world, not make it easier to hand out good grades. It's as if they are just giving up. I'm sorry but all the articles in the world don't change the fact that ebonics is slang. And it has nothing to do with race. The same thing can be said about redneck slang, surfer slang, any kind of slang spoken in America. Should we start teaching Math classes in redneck slang in Mississippi? Where does it all end?
Do some of these kids have trouble understanding english??? I guess what hits some of us the wrong way, are the suggestions that some of the classes would be in 'ebonics.' Its almost funny. If it was April 1st, I'd figure this was the joke of the day. Its one thing to recognize why some kids have trouble with grammer, etc, and its also essential that teachers be aware and sensitive to these issues so that kids are not unfairly labelled lazy or stupid. But to classify it as a language...i find that a stretch...regardless of any academic thesis that could support the concept. The proper way to conjucate the verb be is... i be, he be...she be....NO! Lets not crucify the kid who does this...but let's correct him. What's curious, is that the body of the article is not really related to the title or the introduction. It's the sociology professor who thinks ebonics should be incorporated into the program. The pilot program coordinator, is quoted as saying that ebonics would not be incorporated into the progam. Instead her description is THAT seems like a great program to me! Funny, how the editors can stir things up, no? Add our projections and assumptions add to the frenzy. In fact, other than the sociology prof, FB's the only one really suggesting that Ebonics be used in the classroom!
How about a clear definition of what Ebonics is? I mean a sentence like "Do not ask me that question again" is this ebonics if 'ask' is pronounced 'axe'. What if you put 'dog' at the end of the sentence? Does pronounciation of certain words in a sentence determine weather it is Ebonics or is it determined by grammer, structure, etc. I think people are confusing bad pronounciation and slang with Ebonics.
I took a pretty interesting linguistics course at Rice that taught me that Ebonics is indeed a legitimate "dialect" of English. Some of its roots can be traced back to African dialects. That's fine with me to call it that. That being said, it's not going to gain acceptance in the workplace just like talking like a hick isn't ever going to gain acceptance. Therefore it should be discouraged to speak it, because people will discriminate against you based on how you talk. If you don't believe that, do a google search for George Bush and "nucular". Rightly or wrongly, it's fact that people judge others' intelligence based on their communication skills. If the black culture continues to propogate this dialect, it's not going to help their cause in succeeding in life.
Should I quit saying "y'all" to succeed in life? I like saying it and I will say it to anybody. You might say that I am proud to speak that way.
Much as I hate to agree with t_j, when you are right, you are right. ESL programs do not teach curriculum in the "native" language, they strive to increase the person's fluency in English so that the person can be successful at learning the course content when taught in English.
I use "y'all" regularly (and "howdy" and a number of other Texas colloquialisms), but there is a difference between talking like a "hick" (or speaking in Ebonics) and using those words. I am also proud to have the small bit of Texas twang that I do, but there is a big difference between that and speaking a language that would be nearly foreign in a professional or business setting. I don't think that encouraging kids to use Ebonics MORE is going to do them any favors when they get out into the real world even if they do go to college.
It didn't seem to me in the article that they were talking about putting these kids into ESL-type programs. If that is the case then I am all for it. If they are not learning proper English from an early age, then they need to as a part of the educational process.
Bigtexxx, we rarely agree on racial issues but I can't believe I am agreeing with you 100%. Thanks for replying seriously and not with a conservative bias. I also learned something about how the way black people speak being rooted in African dialect in a class at UofH. What I learned specifically was that it has more to do with why some blacks have a problem pronoucing "ask" and not fully pronoucing the "g" in words ending in "ing". I thought about bringing it up in a post but decided not to.
It is a rare day on the D&D bbs when just about everyone from right, left and middle can agree on something. FB doesn't count I guess.
That appears to me to be what Blade is advocating. For some of these kids who are never around Anglos or others who speak a more traditional English dialect, either at school or at home or at church or whatever, I can see how it would lead to difficulties learning "proper" grammar and pronunciation. Some sort of ESL-type program could help them "catch up" to students who were brought up speaking regular English. I believe the program would be designed to ALLEVIATE the use of the infinitive version of "be," not reinforce it. Whatever they want to try is fine with me, I guess.
It's unfair to single out FB. He's NOT advocating Ebonics here but trying to bring up its roots and to address some of the biggest misconceptions and the ways it is being "taught" in schools. Maybe you guys need to put aside your prejudice first and read his posts carefully before starting to attack him. In this case, bigtexxx is definitely more educated, open and fair-minded than most self-proclaimed "liberals":
slang has to do with words or phrases. Ebonics has to do with the structure of the language. They are not the same thing. Many people mistakenly include slang to be ebonics. It is not. Surf Slang, does not have its own grammatical structure. Ebonics does. Remember that structure is ingrained since before they went to school. All this does is address the need of the learner. Another big misconception is that nobody will be writing college applications in ebonics. Nobody is advocating giving teaching these children standard academic English. This is a program about teaching the students the same exact same standard academic English every other kid in the nation gets. If people don't like students using ebonics in situations when it isn't appropriate, then they should want a program similar to this one that targets those students and helps them to acquire standardized academic English. This program does not make ebonics acceptable in the classroom or occupational environments.
