Dwight Howard is the best center in the NBA, live with it.

who cares who the best center is. Most if not all centers in this league suck. No one will consider any center in ranking the top 15 players in the league.

 

But athleticism doesn't last forever, and its a painful dropoff for big men, who have had skills. It happened to Patrick Ewing really early around 92 or so, and he had to play another 6 years as a #1 option, with limited athleticism which kinda hurt his production.

David Robinson played only 7 years before having a career threatening back injury, which took away A LOT of his athleticism. Luckily he had Tim Duncan, otherwise he would be another MVP along with Steve Nash never to reach the Finals.

By 97 Hakeem had lost most of his athleticism and almost all of it by 98. He never recovered from it to be the dominant and most graceful center that he once was.

By 2004 Shaq lost a lot of athleticism and gained a ton of weight, and that was just 1 year removed from a title. He was never dominant after the 2004 season.


Dwight could be better at some things now, but his athleticism (which is freakish right now) will not last his whole career. I'll give you a clear comparison.



Tim Duncan, not the greatest or most explosive athlete there is in any sport, is still putting up great #'s and has been consistent for many years. Thats the one thing he had on Dream, DRob, Ewing, and Shaq. Those guys in their primes separated themselves from the rest of the centers due to their incredible athletic abilities. Tim Duncan never needed that. Whether you put a quicker power forward on him or a stronger center, he finds a way to produce.

Antonio McDyess is another example of a VERY gifted athlete who had injuries take away much of his game. However, he developed a jump shot and knew how to rebound and became a solid post up defender to stay productive until now.

Ben Wallace's dropoff in production was scary. A 4-time DPOY, went from the beast to a hacker. All he's good for now is fouling. He can't guard anybody anymore, he can't rebound, and he doesn't get easy layups and dunks even with Lebron. Dwight is a taller Ben Wallace, maybe a little bit better offensively. Ask him if he regrets not learning any skills or post moves or a jump shot. I see Dwight having a similar dropoff.

Yao is MUCH more skilled than Dwight and most likely always will be. If Dwight hasn't developed a jumper after 4 years in the NBA, he probably won't ever develop one. Dwight is eventually going to have to learn some skills. Sure, right now he can grab 12-14 rpg, get 2 bpg, and dunk the ball a lot.

DRob, Dream, Shaq, and Ewing all started out that way. All of them used to average 13-15 rpg and 3-5 bpg, without much help on their teams early on in their careers. But they realized soon that over many 82 game seasons, your body wears down, and along with it the freakish athleticism as well.

The point I have been trying to make with my posts, is that Dwight may have some better #'s now, but as the seasons go along and as long as Yao is healthy enough to play 70 game seasons, his #'s are going to last much longer than Dwight's. Skill will ALWAYS prevail over athleticism. All the greats will tell you that. Kareem developed the sky hook and played til he was 42 and still great til about 38. 20 seasons overall. Wilt, a great athlete played 13 seasons, and wasn't scoring much in his last 2 seasons. He became a great passer. Trust me, 8 years from now, we will be glad that we drafted Yao, and not a guy who will have a few great years, but will follow that with many bad ones.

 

I thought we were talking about this season. But if you want to project into the future, Howard is is 5 years younger than Yao. Sure, when Dwight reaches 32 or 33 years he may not be the same player anymore. But by that time, Yao will be in his late 30s and probably retired. So I don't get your point.

 

Well, last nights game didn't help Yao in this debate.

 

His point is that Yao will probably age more gracefully than Howard. Being able to actually shoot the ball is an asset that doesn't fade as fast with age as pure physicality.

 

So is this about who'll have the greater overall career?

Yao is older. Sure he can age more gracefully. But that doesn't change the fact that 5 years down the road, Yao will be in his mid-30s, and Dwight Howard will be in his physical prime. It's insane to think Yao will last longer at a higher level, from this point onward.

 

I don't think 29-30 should be counted as anybody's physical prime--typically you're at your toughest/fastest/strongest in your mid-twenties. That's where Howard is now and basic biology dictates that physically he's peaking.

TheBlackKnight's point stands though that guys who have more to sustain their play than simple physicality--guys like Hakeem and Kareem for example--are able to enjoy longer careers. And some of those guys peaked quite late, not in terms of their physical prowess but in terms of their overall game. A lot of people think that the best Hakeem was the Hakeem who, late in his career, developed a sweet jump shot and led the Rockets to a championship. Compare that to say Shaq currently...

 

Shaq is in his mid-30s. When Shaq was in his late 20s, he was dominating the league and winning championships. 5 years from now, Howard will be 27 going on 28 (Yao will be 33 going on 34). Do you know what Shaq did at that age? He only averaged 29.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, and won an MVP.

 

And do you know what Hakeem did at 31 and 32 that he couldn't do earlier in his career? There was no question at that point that he had lost a step or two physically compared to his younger self. But he had also developed a sweet fadeaway jumper, a shot some people think ranks up there with Kareem's sky hook as the only legitimately undefendable shot in basketball.

Again, it's a question of when a player's game peaks as compared to just his body. There's no question that Hakeem peaked late in his career when, physically at least, he was declining.

 

Do you honestly think Yao is going to get better? Hakeem improved offensively because he became a better face up player and he expanded his offensive repertoire. He was able to do that because he had the physical tools to enable it. Yao doesn't have those physical tools, and he never will. There's a very clear upper bound on what he'll be able to do on the court.

Do you think that 5 years from now Yao will be a better player than Dwight Howard? Honestly? The only argument in this Yao vs. Howard debate that can be made is that Yao is currently the better player. I don't think anyone can seriously argue that Yao will be a better player going forward. Yao is at the peak or downward slope of his career, and Howard is still improving.

 

The point you're missing is that Yao is not going to lose a lot of athleticism. The guy doesn't have a lot of physicality right now and his game doesn't depend on his athleticism. He can barely leave the floor when he jumps. I expect that he'll be just at good at hopping 4 inches in his mid-thirties as he is now.

Yao's game depends on his height and on his shooting touch, and I kind of doubt that either of those are going to decrease significantly as he gets older. Howard on the other hand better learn how to shoot from mid-range because as ThaBlackKnight correctly points out failing to do so means that he will have nothing to compensate for his declining physical skills as he ages.

And Yao can get better. If he can teach himself how to avoid getting freaked out by a couple of early fouls, if he can teach himself how to avoid picking up stupid fouls early in the game, if he can teach himself how to avoid mistakes by being overeager--those changes will constitute improvements in his game. If you saw his play in last night's game and you don't realize that a huge part of sports is mental then you're blind.

 

We will have had his consistent production over a longer period of time, AS LONG AS HE STAYS HEALTHY. If he continues to have injuries, then my argument is irrelevant. Yao can't help that Dwight is 5 years younger than him.

Yao will be more like Tim Duncan in that his #'s will stay pretty consistent for a good period of time.

Dwight's peak might be better than Yao's as far as production, but KG's peak was better than Duncan's also, but KG's offensive game now is nowhere near what it was in 2004. Tim Duncan's offensive game is still pretty close to what it was in 1999. Duncan's consistency has allowed the Spurs to compete for a title for a decade where as KG had 2 chances in his peak seasons in Minnasota as the #1 post option. I'll take my chances over a decade than a couple of monster seasons.

If Dwight gets a dynamic guard, then he won't have to be the best center in the NBA, he just has to do all the dirty work, and they could still have a chance to win. With Yao, if he has a couple of playmakers and people who can hit shots, then he has a chance to win titles every year.

There's a good chance that in 2 years, Tmac will be gone and Artest could be gone by next year. But if we surround Yao with a playmaker and shooters, his team still has a chance to win titles. Dwight needs a great guard to set him up for points, because he has a hard time getting them on his own.


But of course, Dwight could be around 5 years after Yao retires if he wants to. Thats not what I was arguing. I'm saying over 15 seasons (If Yao plays til he is 35 and if Dwight plays til he's 33), Yao's production will be more consistent because of his post game and jump shooting ability. Dwight will have great numbers now, but once a few NBA seasons or injuries catches up to him, he'll be another Ben Wallace or Jaamal McGloire.

 

Dwight Howard vs Boston last year in 3 games:

Game 1: 24 pts, 7-9 FG, 6 rebs, 3 blks
Game 2: 23 pts, 9-15 FG, 14 rebs, 2 blks
Game 3: 18 pts, 6-10 FG, 16 rebs, 5 blks

While it's inconclusive with this data that Howard > Yao, we definitely know that Howard matches up with the defending champs (and similar teams) way better than Yao. His superior strength and athleticism explains why he was able to get plenty of rebounds and shoot well.

 

You're right, Yao doesn't rely on athleticism. But he does rely on stamina. He (and the team) rely on durability. These are things that can and will diminish over time. All the areas in which Yao can currently be a defensive liability due to lack of mobility, that will only become a greater problem for him over time. So the key question is whether Yao can improve other areas of his game enough to make up for that natural physical decline. I frankly don't see much scope for that. I think you overstate this "mental" stuff. It's his body that is the predominant limiting factor, not his mind.

His strengths depend on that. But a player isn't just the sum of his strengths. He's the sum of his strengths and weaknesses. What I'm saying is that Yao's weaknesses will be magnified over time, and I don't expect his strengths to improve enough to offset that.

Yao's controlled his foul trouble just fine the last few years. Yesterday's game was an anomaly. I don't deny that Yao can play smarter. But, at the same time, he's been in the league for 6 years. I don't think anyone studies himself on tape more than him. He knows what he's supposed to do; he isn't a kid any more. He just has significant physical limitations that will keep him from being a consistently dominant player.

 

Ok, I understand. You're saying Yao will have a better career. He'll be more productive late into his career.

I don't know ... I hope you're right.

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200801040ORL.html


Yao 26 points, 10 rebounds, 6-7 FT, 0 block in 31 minutes, 4 fouls

Dwight 16 points, 8 rebounds, 6-10 FT, 1 block, in 33 minutes, Fouled out

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200712190HOU.html

Yao 19 points, 17 rebounds, 5-8 FT, 3 blocks, in 43 minutes, 3 fouls
(no Tmac 2nd half)

Dwight 21 points, 11 rebounds, 7-9 FT, 3 blocks in 38 minutes, 5 fouls



If Dwight was the "best center in the NBA", he would be able to stop somebody who can't run or jump, right?? He is supposed to be stronger, faster, younger, and better than Yao right? He wouldn't average 5-6 fouls per game. He wouldn't let Yao grab 17 rebounds on him. Yao can score 19 points on his own shot where as Dwight needs rebounds and alley oops to get his points.

 

It all depends on health with Yao. He has more injury problems than the great centers before him, thats what scares me the most.

 

damn! you're controversial and witty?!?!?

you're like the dwight howard of intertronzing.

 

And what does that have to do with my post? Nothing at all. I said Howard matches up way better against the Celtics than Yao because of his athleticism and strength. Good luck trying to dismiss this claim.

 

Dwight has no midrange game and his FT are horrendous. If he improves on those two things, then he is but right now I would take Yao