His supporting cast has never been that great. He's never had a Kobe Bryant on his team, like Shaq. He never had a Stockton, like Malone, or a KJ, like Barkley. Bruce Bowen is a specialist and Nesterovic is a stiff (not sure if he's still starting, could be Mohammed). Nobody really knows how good Parker and Ginobili are; they've made their living playing off of the attention Duncan commands.
Ummmmm... He has got most beat with the rings, but that's about it so far... Tim Duncan career REB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS 7,139 1,839 459 1,488 1,730 1,614 13,204 Karl Malone career Reb AST STL BLK TO PF PTS 14,968 5,248 2,085 1,145 4,524 4,578 36,928
Who would you rather have in their prime, Tim Duncan or Karl Malone, all jazz hate aside? I say 10 out of 10 coaches say Tim Duncan. And his career numbers, while they fall short of Karl's, as he's still relatively young, are significant - combine that with the ring factor, and I think it's no contest. Malone was a more prolific scorer, but that's about it.
KARL MALONE 1. His free throws 2. His turn overs... Karl had less turn overs HIS WHOLE CAREER than Tim does now.. 3. His fire to win 4. His -D- Amares ass would have been on the wood a few times with Karl playin him.. 5. He could shoot better than Tim and from further out.. As for 10 coaches saying who would pick who... COME ON NOW,
1. His free throws? Who cares? Shaq can't shoot free throws either. 2. Turnovers - ok, but since Duncan was a post player who plays back to the basket and has to create, rather than a guy who scores off cuts or jumpers, that's going to happen - I'm willing to bet he's had the ball in his hands a lot more than Karla too 3. fire to win? both he and barkley played dirty- it didn't get either what they wanted, did it? 4. Karl's defense was historically AWFUL and was at the same level as Barkley until about 1996 or 1997, when he became a decent "slap" defender and was pretty good at knocking the ball away - then people started naming him to the all Defensive team - which was ridiculous. He was a decent defender in the end, and much better than when he started, but he wasn't among the very best. Anyway, Duncan is 10 times the defensive presence tha karla ever was, although it's really not Karla's fault since he was only 6-7 or so.
2. This has to be a joke. You're nitpicking on turnovers? Malone just lived on the pick and roll. He hardly ever posted up or drew double teams to free up his teammates. He set a pick and then dove to the hoop for foul shots or shot a fadeaway. I can only imagince what Duncan would have done playing with Stockton. 3. You think Duncan doesn't have fire to win? He got 20, 20, 10, and 8 in the championship clinching game. Malone got the ball stolen and flopped to the ground like a fish out of water. 4. Malone was never a defensive anchor of a team like Tim has been for the Spurs. He gambles and strips the ball away. Tim is the key cog of the spurs entire defense. Every guard funnels their man right to him, and he has been shutting teams down for years. And who cares if Malone fouls Amare hard a few times? Do you think that would slow that kid down? Amare would have jumped over Malone all day long. He would have gotten eaten alive if he were left on an island like the Spurs intentionally did to Duncan. Amare got his points, but the Suns only made 1 three in the game. 5. Whoopdedamndoo. That's where I want my hall of fame bigman, shooting stand-still fadeaways from 20 feet. Like Dream, Duncan could do that, but he also has an all-world post up game. And then there's the whole winning thing.
Freak is right, w/o Tim Duncan the franchise would never have made it past the WCFs. The late career stage DR, the Elliots, Ginobilis, SJacks, Bowens, Horrys, Elies, Parkers, AJs, Nazrs, Kerr's, Claxton's, some good players and some great role players, but none capable of carrying teams by themselves. Duncan makes all those guys appear better than they are. I still think this whole comparison is wrong. Duncan is 7 footer who really is more of a C than PF. The Spurs team down the strecth plays him as 5. Again the guys to most fairly compare him to are Kareem and Hakeem, not mainstay 4s like Malone or Barkley. Personally I don't think Duncan is in Hakeem or Kareem's league--other finese, super skilled, 6'11+ types that make a better comparison than 6'9" or shorter PFs. But that doesn't mean Duncan isn't a great, great player. Just not a legendary player with unparelelled skills and athleticsm like the two I mentioned.
I agree on the athleticism, but skill? I can't really imagine a player with more skills than Duncan. That's really all he has. Sure, he's not flashy, but he puts the ball in the basket with the best of em, with either hand. I guess he could have a flashy move like the dreamshake or skyhook, but what's the point when what he is doing is working so well?
1. Yep, and that's why there is the HACK A SHAQ and he sits at the end of games sometimes.. If Tim could hit more of his FT in game 3 who knows, the Spurs could have closed it out then. 2. You and I must be waching different players... most of the time the game plan for Tim is A. Tim would cut to the basket off a pick&roll for a slam or B. shoot his bankshot... I see him posting up some not as much as you say he is 3. Fire to win is a huge ability that cant be measured, (I.E. YAO) 4. So by Deke not getting props this year on D from most people does that mean he was AWFUL?? I thought it was Chuck Daily who said something about Karl being one of the most underrated defenders he has seen play, plus he does have all this "Three-time NBA All-Defensive First Team selection (1996-97, 1997-98 and 1998-99) and a 1987-88 NBA All-Defensive Second Team selection" I thought we didnt have to bring the JAZZHOLE hate into this, I'm looking at this from a level playing field PLAYER A vs. PLAYER B are you doing the same??
See my last post.. I'm just going by WHAT I HAVE SEEN, not what I think Duncan could possibly do with more time.. ONE has unbelievable numbers and the other has a career ending injury come up would be a question mark for the HOF... This argument is taking place WAY TO EARLY to be taken seriously.. come talk about this when Tim has hung it up and then lets look at it, till then I would take KARLA over Tim
WTF are you talking about? Malone has 4524 career turnovers over the course of his career (he's the NBA's ALL TIME LEADER), Duncan has 1730... Get your facts straight, buddy.
1. Yet shaq has 3 championships & Finals MVPs and is a top 5 big man, arguably the most dominant ever, while Karl Malone has, uh, his FT stats and some Western conference champion rings.... 2. Whatever - the point is, Malone was assisted on a lot more of his shots than Duncan. - and since your turnover stat was WAY WAY off, I guess it's moot anyway. 3. I'm measuring "fire to win" by actual "winning", , when you value Karl's "fire to win" (and not winning), over Duncan's actual "winning", I'm not sure if I'm the one who doesn't have a level playing field. If Karl had such a "fire to win", btw, why was he such a jerk off the court and creating distractions with regard to his team and with management, about his contract or the media and a perceived lack of respect? He had a lot of fire to get paid and be accorded respect. 4. And this confirms exactly what I said: he didn't start to become a good defender until 1996. (and even then, it's questionable whether he deserved it all those years, certainly he improved, but he wasn't going out there and locking people down). Either way, Duncan is so vastly superior in this department to the point where it's a joke to argue that Malone is in the same class.
1. So a great team doesnt get you a ring, we all know that no matter how great a player is it's the team that will win the rings.. Clyde was a great player for years put up great numbers, but when he came here that's when he had a great team to help him win.. I not saying Karl didnt have good teams, but do you think Shaq or Tim could take the Jazz as far as Karl did for so many years?? 2. "You are correct sir" -SNL 3. Ok, so now we are going by what they do off the court? Why not just point to the numbers? 4. So in the late 80's when he won 2nd team all D and in the early 90's when he was play great D doesnt count now??
Malone's BEST STATISTICAL year: 91-92 PPG: 29 RPG: 11.8 FG%: 52.6% FT%: 77% SPG: 1.09 BPG: .96 APG: 2.7 TOPG: 2.98 Duncan's BEST STATISTICAL year: 01-02 PPG: 25.5 RPG: 12.7 FG%: 50.8% FT%: 79.9% SPG: .74 BPG: 2.48 APG: 3.7 TOPG: 3.21 In terms of offense, Malone is a better player and if I were looking for a 4 with offense, I'd pick Malone. I don't even have to go by statistics. He had a better jumper and he had better moves down low. In terms of overall player, I'd take Duncan. He can't score as efficiently has Malone or Barkley (in his prime; the man had a 60% FG % one season) but he's good enough on offense is and is leaps and bounds better on defense than either Malone or Barkley. Granted, I still think he's masquerading as a 4 when he should be a 5, he's still a better overall PF than Malone. I'm not even putting championships as one of the measures since Malone played in the Jordan/Dream era so his chances weren't so great.
1. Shaq, at his most dominant, could have definitely taken the Jazz as far, if not farther, as could Duncan. Hell, shaq went to the finals in his second year. 3. OK, let's point to the numbers: trashtalking, egocentric, prima donna, aka "fire to win": 0 titles; quiet, laid back team first guy 2 titles and counting. 4. I suspect that a bunch of writers put him on the All D team in 88 because of his rebounding, (steve Francis got some votes last year), it certainly wasn't his shot blocking, and like I said, he wasn't locking people down one on one. Hell, even if he did deserve it, doesn't the 9-year long gap between the next time he made all D team seem like a bit of a red flag that mabye he wasn't all that highly regarded on D those years? I still don't know how or why we're even arguing this point, considerng that Duncan has made it all 7 or 8 years he's been in the league.
1. Shaq at his MOST dominant... Karla got them to the finals and lost to Jordan when he was still the Jordan we all remember he was.. I dont see Shaq without KOBE PENNY WADE doing what he's doing.. Lets not forget the Spurs were a good team and then David goes down for the season and they tank the rest of their games and some how the land the #1 pick and get TIMMY and all is well the next year.. 3. There are many players in the NBA over the years that have won rings, if that was the end all stat to go by you are right, but it's not so that's why I dont think I'm alone by saying Karla is better than Tim.. 4. Sorry to me Karla could get in other players heads by talking trash doing the ole pull the chair out trick all kinda stuff that Tim hasnt learned yet, Karla had the phyiscal and mental D when Tim only has one so far My point to all this is Tim still has along way to go before he should be talked about being up there with the best of the best.. sure he's a great player now, but onlny time will put him in his place..a good or great player for his career
