Duncan has accomplished more than Kobe so far other than accomplishments, in regards to impact, talent, and everything else Kobe beats him out But you may say if kobe is better in regards to impact, talent and everything else, why hasn't he accomplished more? Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm and Brian Cook are your answers try taking these D leaguers to the playoffs who can't play a lick of defense
This is what Kobe's cast look like before his three year stint with Smush, Kwame, and co. 1st year post championship years, roster included Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, and a few others. Shaquille O'Neal (still the best center in league at the time and MVP player), Karl Malone, Gary Payton, and Derek Fisher. 56-26 (03-04) Shaquille O'Neal, Derek Fisher, Rick Fox, Glen Rice, and Brian Shaw Shaquille O'Neal, Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Dennis Rodman (briefly)... Kobe's played on some really well-rounded team, this is not his first time being on a great roster...I would say he has always been on a great roster, except for maybe two years out of his career.
1st year post Shaq: Coach left them in midseason. So what if they had Butler...he wasn't even remotely close to how good he is in Washington the last couple of years. He didn't play a lick of defense until Mr. Eddie Jordan told him to. 2003/2004 was a terrible year. Shaq was overweight, refused to play defense when he didn't get enough touches and was just lazy on defense. I'm sure you witnessed Steve Francis/Yao Ming pick and roll his fat ass to death on Christmas 04. Shaq was a good player but not the best in 04. All the parties were to blame in 03/04. Also Malone missed like half the season. Gary Payton verbally complained about not being involved enough in the offense...even more babysitting for Kobe to do back then. The other two were good teams alright but they needed some championship experience to get them to the top...Ron Harper, AC Green, John Salley, Horace Grant, Robert Horry played a huge huge role
yeah, for uc irvine... lol just look at spurs without manu or parker this season, how did the spurs do?(or more excues like spurs don't try till playoffs blah blah)
You can't be serious.... the Lakers started the 03/04 season at 18-3 and finished 56-26, which was the second best record in the West...a team that went to the Finals. Shaq was a good player, but not the best in 04....huh? You realize Shaq was still the best center in the league and averaging 21.5 and 11.5 rebounds on a team with a team that featured an emerging Kobe, a still pretty decent and 20 ppg Karl Malone, and Gary Payton. If that team won the championship....that would've been considered one of the best teams ever. Furthermore, that team might've been better than some of the title teams. I will even say Shaq was one of the players on that team that actually showed up for the NBA Finals, while Kobe is pretty mortal...averaging below 40% shooting. Also in the playoffs, the MIng/Francis pick"n"roll didn't matter that much, Shaq shut down Yao Ming and the Rockets got thrashed in the elimination game of a very short 5 game series. We weren't even really on the map, then (just a team who was fortunate enough to make the playoffs).
You can't be serious.... the Lakers started the 03/04 season at 18-3 and finished 56-26, which was the second best record in the West...a team that went to the Finals. - So what if they got off to a quick start? They did lose Malone for half a season right? who was his replacement? Slava frickin Medvedenko...Horace Grant went down as well Shaq was a good player, but not the best in 04....huh? Yes thats right. You realize Shaq was still the best center in the league and averaging 21.5 and 11.5 rebounds on a team with a team that featured an emerging Kobe, a still pretty decent and 20 ppg Karl Malone, and Gary Payton. If that team won the championship....that would've been considered one of the best teams ever. Furthermore, that team might've been better than some of the title teams. Can I find better centers at that time who played better D and rebounded better? absolutely. Also Shaq's wasn't that effective in the 4th quarters when the refs let the players play...he kept missing chippies (his toe and calf injuries beign the reason) and unless he was right underneath the basket, he could do nothing. You saw how Pop exploited the Hack a Shaq? thats what we had to deal with in the 4th when he had Shaq. Again just because you have big names doesn't mean it can all work out...with all the big names came the package aka Gary Payton's big fat mouth. Also it wasn't the same Gary Payton, he lost a step, he couldn't post up guards anymore, couldn't hang with other PGs on defense. I will even say Shaq was one of the players on that team that actually showed up for the NBA Finals, while Kobe is pretty mortal...averaging below 40% shooting. - Who hit the game tying 3 to force OT in game ? Kobe...who took over in OT? Kobe...the only game we won Look i'm not saying Kobe had a woeful shooting series, he did but that has to do with the suffocating defense that Detroit played and the inability of Shaq and Kobe themselves to overcome it...and this is where we didn't have role players like the Horrys and the Grants and the Harpers and the Foxs to give any kind of a break for the Big two. Also in the playoffs, the MIng/Francis pick"n"roll didn't matter that much, Shaq shut down Yao Ming and the Rockets got thrashed in the elimination game of a very short 5 game series. We weren't even really on the map, then (just a team who was fortunate enough to make the playoffs) No Shaq didn't shut down yao ming...his poor foul prone ass was guarding Kelvin Cato while Karl Malone was outmuscling Yao.
Shaq averaged 27 and 11 on 65% in the finals while Kobe got outplayed by Billups and Kobe averaged 22 on 38% and had more turnovers than assists that series.
A more interesting comparison is Kobe versus David Robinson. Pick someone who is fantastic in the regular season but who fades when the going gets tough in the playoffs and leadership is required. Regular season Duncan < Robinson & Duncan < Kobe. Duncan saves his best stuff for when rings are on the line. Hakeem was that way too. When most people evaluate the greatest NBA players, they do consider championships and playoff MVPs in the equation. I guess my 1 year old has a "chance" to be this too. But I wouldn't call him better than Duncan simply because Duncan isn't quite what he once was. I think the only current player with a decent chance at this is Lebron, since he is already better than Kobe and younger. But I'd give Lebron maybe a 3% chance of this (to eclipse Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, & Russell), 5% max.
That's where the line that separates Kobe and Duncan ends this thread. Duncan has never played poorly in the Finals, while Kobe had two sub-par finals, a very average one in 00-01 against 76ers, and somewhat of a non-factor, except one game in 2000 Finals. Shaq was the engine on those Laker teams, 38 ppg, 35 ppg, and 34 ppg averaging at least 12 rebs...and on top of that Shaq had just as many assists as Kobe did. I'm almost like Barkley when people compare Kobe to MJ, their both black, can jump real high, and maybe score few points that's about it. He'll never be the greatest player of all time...maybe one of the best, not that main guy. I would certainly wouldn't give him up for Larry, Wilt, MJ, Magic, Oscar, Dream, Kareem, David Robinson, and others, possibly Tim Duncan being one of them, if these players are in their prime.
right, except kobe beats duncan when kobe actually got some legit support instead of having to deal with kwame, smush, luke or turaif as his starters
Duncan is the best center masquerading as a power forward of all time. The truth is he has far more playoff minutes in the 5 spot than the 4 spot. Overall he is certainly a top 8 big man of all time--maybe as high as 6, and probably tops of those who at least started most of their games at PF (though again, IMO where he plays the majority of time, not where he "started", is more telling about his position). And he is most likely a top 12 player of all time, and yes that is level Kobe hasn't, and may not, crack.
So he made one miracle shot (not a miracle, but a long bomb) to send it into OT, and he took over in OT...in one game. How does this offset the other 3 games where he shot y'all out of the series? Shaq was shooting over 60% that series. The funny thing is Kobe took more shots than him (IIRC) and wouldn't give him the rock. The Lakers had enough help to win that year. The whole team played bad in some area (i.e. Shaq not playing much D or rebounding as well)....and Kobe's area happened to be jacking up more shots than anyone else, and missing a lot of them.
