Why is this poll even close? Sure he is a center masquerading as a pf but Duncan turned the Spurs from a lottery team to the winning-est team in the entire history of American sports (baseball, hockey and football included). You don't argue credentials like that. Duncan lead his team to multiple championship titles from day 1, working with people like the Admiral to the "real" Big three today (because 3 rings>1). All Kobe has done is lead his team to the lottery, and then to a finals beatdown at the hands of the Celtics. Most importantly, Duncan is the greatest PF ever and Kobe is not the greatest ever at his position. Since SG and PF are relatively of the same importance on the court therefore Duncan>Kobe. Also, the OP forgot to mention Duncan's numerous all star appearances but listed Kobe's, and then enumerated each of Kobe's accomplishments but lumped Duncan's together so it seemed like Kobe accomplished more. I don't know if that was intentional or not but it seems to me you were kinda' biased towards Kobe when you wrote that.
Yeah but if you do this then you're giving Kobe all the credit for the multiple championships, when it should be given to West for giving them Gasol. Seriously, had the Gasol thing not happened Lakers would have been in the lottery last season once Bynum went down and we wouldn't even be having this poll....
Duncan. Kobe was arguably the second best player on those championship teams, meanwhile it remains undisputed Duncan was the best player on his. And rather than derail this thread with the Kobe vs. Shaq stuff, for argument's sake let's just call them equal. Duncan had no "equal" and he has more championships, a higher winning percentage plus I dare you to poll all 30 NBA GM's/coaches and ask them would they would build a team around or coach (in their primes, of course).
Duncan, by far. 1. Duncan has won more games with higher winning percentage than Kobe. He's never lost on the big stages in the NBA Finals, while Kobe has lost, twice. In fact, Duncan beat the same team, the Lakers almost got swept by in the previous season. He also has had some of the best NBA finals of all time, performance wise, while Kobe has never really been spectacular in the Finals. Really, he has been somewhat poor, especially in 2004 and 2008...in both series he was shooting under 40% a great deal of the time. 2. He plays at a much more important position on the floor c/pf (post player), so by default he's already more important to his team, compare the number of high scoring wings to great post playing power fowards and centers. 3. Duncan is most likely the greatest power forward of all time, good shot blocker and a great post defender. The center-piece on all of his title teams. 4. If you replace Duncan in the same time period with another power forward (like Garnett, Barkley, or Malone) do they still win 4 titles. At the same time, replace Kobe, circa 99-04 with T-Mac (from the Magic), Vince Carter, or Dwayne Wade. How much do the Lakers drop-off (even though Shaq would still be in the mix)? I'm thinking the Lakers are still a great team and probably win 2 or 3 titles, anyway.
This is the point i was trying to make earlier. You can't really compare the two. He's more important by DEFAULT. If given a team of scrubs, I would say Duncan would be just as if not more successful than any wing player not named Michael Jordan. That has more to do with him being a post player than him being better than every other wing player (which he is not). I don't know if anyone will get what i mean but i think Kobe Bryant is the better player but Tim Duncan is better for a team.
Tough question for many reasons especially on personal level since I dislike both of them. That aside, it has to be Duncan if your primary objective is winning championships. Kobe might be the more talented player, but that doesn't always translate into W's.
Better than jordan huh? Im not old enough to have watched Jordan in his prime, but damn, he must have sucked bad on D if Kobe is better than him. Kobe gets lit up on a consistent basis so I dont know where he got this lockdown defender rep from
The only good SG per today's standard is R.Miller in those days. And Jordan had Pippen to take up the slack for him. On offensive side, it's not really athletic in that era and Jordan can easily ISO 6-3, 6-4 defenders which was common place, not gonna happen today with zone defense and 6-7 physical defenders. Jordan's defense was way overrated.
I hope you are kidding....because Miller may not have even been by a type 5 point guard in 90s. So let me get this straight, you are saying Reggie Miller is the only guard from those days that would be only good sg, according to this standard or style of play. Have you ever heard of these players: Clyde Drexler Mitch Richmond Latrell Sprewell Allan Houston Jeff Malone Rolando Blackman Isiah Rider Reggie Theus Jamal Mashburn Jim Jackson Glenn Rice Reggie Lewis Steve Smith
1. As goodbug already pointed out, but I don't believe he emphasized enough: Pippen took all the tough assignments. He was the guy guarding the Drexlers, Richmonds, Magics, and Millers of the world. Jordan was made to look way better than he was on defense because not only was he guarding the other team's #2 wing player, he also constantly made dumb gambles for steals that Pippen covered up for. 2. goodbug, I agree with almost the entirety of your post, except the part where you say SGs were weak in that era. There were plenty of good wings... but the point is Jordan wasn't guarding the good ones, he was guarding the 2nd-best ones.
the answer is obviously duncan, and previous posters evoked why. but i only have 2 things to add: 1) i've never heard duncan have problems with his teammates. i lived in san antonio and thus was always exposed to spurs news for the majority of my life. my impressions were - he's always seemed to get along with his teammates, he gives them the credit they deserve, and he won't throw them under the bus. he's definitely humble despite his dominating success (contrast with kevin garnett). 2) i've been impressed with how you can throw anyone around him and the team will manage to survive. during that period when they were without ginobilli and parker this season really impressed me, having a leader like duncan on the floor definitely accelerated the development of george hill (a pick which spurs fans were once furious about).
I'd use a simple formula, how about average 25PPG in regular season in 90s, I want to count out 80s because 80s had poor defense and the league averaged 105-110 points, plus MJ got all his rings in 90s. Let's check how many wing player achieve that. Drexler did it. Miller didn't. Richmond OK. Sprewell no, Houston No. So only 2 wing players ever averaged 25PPG in 90s not counting MJ. Isn't that lack of competition? We had AI, LBJ, Kobe, TMac avg 30+ for this decade alone. Plus, the league doesn't average more points than 90s.
- Kobe never really "led" the Lakers to the lottery. The year they didnt make the playoffs he got injured the beggining of the year, then Rudy T stepped down as coach which took the wind out of the Lakers' sails. It'd be like saying McGrady and Yao led the Rockets to the lottery the year they were both injured. - Lakers were NOT a lottery team before Gasol arrived. It was a tough Western Conference last year no doubt but I dont think they would have finished behind the Warriors or Blazers. Dont forget Dominique. Hard to believe but Glen Rice averaged 26 PPG in '97. Chris Mullin was at 25 PPG '90 thru '92. Bernard King snuck in there in '91. Not saying those are great players and direct Jordan competition, but they were wing players that reached the 25 PPG mark in the 90's. Interesting that 90's were all about the big centers and forwards and its Jordan & 1 year Isiah + Dumars winning the titles. And in the wing player 00's its Shaq and Duncan taking all the titles. BTW, I say Duncan gets remembered as the better player, but I dont say it too confidentally with all the "Kobe IS the best player on the PLANET" acclaim that Duncan never gets.
Duncan has one more championship than Kobe without the help of Shaq. 4x NBA Champion. Duncan is 3x Finals MVP. Duncan is 1x regular season MVP. The same name number of MVPs as Kobe. Duncan has never lost an NBA Finals. Kobe twice. Once with Shaq. Duncan never played with arguably a top 4 or 5 center in the game. Robinson was over the hill, Manu and Parker didn't enter their prime until recently.
I'd like to say how many of those modern players you just named have shot over 50% in their careers. Also, I didn't even mentioned the small forwards...Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Larry Johnson, and Jamal Mashburn (who was averaging 20 game very late in his career in the mid 2000s). How many of them could shoot 3 pointers as well as Glenn Rice, Reggie Miller, Chris Mullin, Larry Bird, and etc? There's not that much difference between the skill of the players in basketball from the 80s/90s vs. right now? There are alot of players who could come into league right now and wouldn't face any kind of drop-off in their performances. Also, you are dead wrong on only two wing players averaging more than 25 ppg? I know there's several who have... Bernard King (90-91) Grant Hill (96-97) Charles Barkley (since he actually played SF for a good bit in Phoenix) Chris Mullin (5 consecutive seasons over 25 ppg) Adrian Dantley A few others... Lastly, I'll say how many centers right now or this decade have averaged at least 22 points and 10 rebounds a game or how many point guards have averaged at least 12 points, 7 - 10 assists, and been on an all defensive squad. In those days, the offense ran through the point guards or centers, wings were in most cases a second option. Besides, that is very inefficient to let a guard to be hoisting away and he isn't even shooting 45%...the ball was in the hands of point guards who could shoot and pass or centers who could dominate in the post.
MJ won DPOY in 87-88, Pippens rookie season...where he started no games and only got 20 mpg. I don't recall anyone getting a DPOY award when they didn't take on the responsibility of checking a top offensive option each night...i.e a wing player in MJ's case. That season had these dominant wing players: Celtics - Bird, 6-9, 30 ppg on 53% Bullets - Jeff Malone, 6-4, 20 ppg on 48% Bullets - Bernard King, 6-7, 17 ppg on 50% Knicks - Gerald Wilkins, 6-6, 17 ppg on 45% Pistons - Dantley, 6-5, 20 ppg on 51% Hawks - Nique, 6-7, 31 ppg on 46% Cavs - Harper, 6-6, 15 ppg on 46% Pacers - Person, 6-8, 17 ppg on 46% That's all from the Eastern Conference. Yeah, Pippen checked everyone once he was ready. And?? If you put Pippen on the Lakers he would check everyone too. It's why LA acquired Ariza. It's why they had Fox and Harper in their title runs. Kobe has only avg over 2 spg once, and over 1 bpg once. MJ got ya over 2 spg in 10 of his forst 11 seasons, broke 3 once, hit 2.9 twice and 2.8 twice. He got 1 bpg or more 4 times. I won't even get into how poor Kobe's post defense has been for most of his career. He was just fortunate enough to have Shaq so it was rarely exposed. Edit: All of those wings weren't dominant, but you have two HOF players there and two more who could go (is Dantley in)? I felt I made my point and didn't feel like looking at the West, where I could havegotten more stud wings.
DPOY and Defensive team awards I find rather suspect. A number of years ago, Doug Christie should have won it. But he was voted 4th, behind three bigs. Then somehow, Kobe and Kidd both made it onto the first team over him. And while steals and blocks are nice, they're risk plays. It's quite possible to get a lot of blocks or steals without being a great defensive player, because you're always leaving your mates out to dry while you go for the flash. Look at Chris Anderson. And well... Jordan with the steals. Do you see Battier getting a lot of steals or blocks? Dennis Johnson? Bruce Bowen? Dennis Rodman? Dave Cowens? Those are some of the better defenders to ever play, and none of them got big steals/blocks numbers. It's kinda like pass rushers and sack numbers in the NFL. You may have pressured the QB 600 times, but if you don't get 12 sacks in the season, no one talks about you. Yao might change 50 million shots and made them miss, but unless he actually touches leather, no one cares a week later. Good defense is very, very hard to measure statistically.
It is. But I have seen nothing from Kobe on the court to conclude that he is a better defender than MJ. This goes back to the 3-peat days when players like Steve Smith punished him in the post at will (well, all the times that they could get Shaq out of that area). It goes to the initial post-Shaq seasons when players like Arenas were dropping 50 on LA, etc. It goes to the Finals last yr, when he couldn't contain Pierce or Allen. On the court, I don't see it. Statistically, I clearly don't see it. He has defenders worse than Pippen checking top options every night...because that's good basketball. MJ gained his rep from being the first star to be the best player on both sides of the ball.
Just gonna have to agree to disagree. Again, not saying Jordan was a bad defender. He was a good defender. But he was awfully overrated. He did fine for himself without Pippen, but from watching them both, I think Kobe would do better on D had he been on all the same squads. I tend to think in this case that Olympic ball is one decent measuring stick too, since neither had to be his team's offense. Kobe's D was nuts in the Olympics.
