I don't want Francis directing my team, I don't want Francis on my team actually. BUT your tone is obnoxious and your point muddy. How many sub 30 year old guys have put togther 20-6-6 seasons in this league? Go ahead and count them. Do you think Francis is the only one who has high TOs, a poor A/TO ratio and who is known as being undisciplined? He is a major individual talent well over 1/4 of the the teams and maybe 1/2 of the teams int he NBA would LOVE to have him (like the Bulls). Both because of his individual talent and his fan/all-star factor. If you think the Bulls wouldn't take Francis for Hinrich or Crawford plus trade fodder (Robinson) you are crazy, the Bulls need a star first, than than can worry about excellent looking role players like Hinrich. Whether we also could get their #1 pick or Chandler plus Hinrich or Crawford (plus trade filler Robinson) is debatable, but I would not settle for much less. If Allen and Lewis are so great why is Seattle so bad? Neither Francis nor Allen nor Lewis has proven they can lead a good team yet they all have mega contracts, I would put them in a similar category in market value. In summary, YES we want to trade Francis. But because of other bonehead moves we better get full value and not take the 1st cost saving low ball offer because we have lots of roster spots to fill. And those of you who think Hinrich has SF's trade value based on individual talent and PR/star quality either completely understimate SF's individual basketball gifts or overestimate Hinrich's.
I think Chandler is a big piece of that proposed trade. Of course we won't trade SF for Hinrich or Crawfold alone. Allen is new to that team and he is not happy there so he is not tring his best. Lewis is on the way up. I see more potentials in his game than in SF's. But you have got a point. Judged by the way we feel about other teams stars, maybe they still think highly of SF, at least better than we feel about him.
Francis has put up great numbers on bad teams. Right now, since the Hawks traded away talent, Stephen Jackson has been averaging 21 ppg, 6 rpg and 3.6 apg. I guess he's a super-star too. Francis for the last three years has been voted on to the all-star team by fans, the same ones who voted Mourning on this year. If the fans hadn't voted Francis on, based on merit he would not have gotten a whiff of the all-star extravaganza as a selection of GMs. Notice how every year he's been there he's gotten token minutes and has had his butt firmly planted on the bench at the end, crunch time, when the big dogs play. Fact is that Francis's abilities added to his contract equals liability and people fantasizing that they can trade away Francis to plug in fillers for the Rockets gaps with bonafide all-stars like Allen or Iverson, or for up and comers with cheap contracts like Hinrich are living the dream. If Francis wasn't serioulsy flawed 90% of CC wouldn't be tlalking about trading him. It ain't just Houston where he doesn't fit.
yeah, the Rockets in the West were as bad as the Hawks in the East. You're right, Francis is terrible.
Are you fu*&ing crazy? Chandler is not a star and Hienrich or whatever the hell his name is, is simply not that good. You're trading an all star for two unproven players? Give me a break. I say look at the Iverson option. Brent Barry/Ray Allen, Stephen Jackson, and Manu. Any or combination of these players would be of great benefit.
There is no way in the world that the Spurs would take Francis, even as an outright gift. Duncan would never see the ball again.
This is from Hoopsworld site The Hinrich Maneuver By Chris Feldman for HOOPSWORLD.com Feb 29, 2004, 17:45 There’s a saying that there’s no great loss without some small gain, and the Chicago Bulls can testify to that. Facing the loss of projected point guard of the future Jay Williams in an offseason motorcycle accident, the Bulls altered their draft strategy, selecting Kirk Hinrich with their 2003 lottery pick. Coming off a Bulls’ win against Golden State when he racked up his first career triple double (and the first by any rookie this season), that loss has definitely turned into the Bulls’ gain. Although he hasn’t cracked the holy trinity of rookie of the year candidates (LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, and Dwayne Wade), a strong argument can be made that Kirk falls right behind those three. To back up that assessment, Hinrich is currently 4th among rookies in minutes per game, behind James, Wade, and Anthony. He’s 4th in scoring, behind the same three. He is 2nd in assists, behind T.J. Ford, and is 3rd in steals, behind James and Wade. He is 13th among rookies in rebounds, but considering he’s not a front line player like Chris Bosh or Josh Howard, his 3.4 rebounds per game is nothing to sneeze at. While he remains turnover prone, he is a rookie, and history has shown the best point guards aren’t always the players with the best assist-to-turnover ratio. What’s most impressive about Hinrich is that he didn’t come to the Bulls to be a star. Most projected he’d fill in as a backup to Jamal Crawford at the point guard position, but then something happened: people discovered he could play. Soon he and Crawford were sharing the backcourt, and another something amazing happened: Crawford, who had clashed with Jay Williams during his Bulls stint over playing time and pecking order, found a certain chemistry with Hinrich, and the two point guards became the Bulls starting backcourt, an arrangement past coaches fought to avoid. In his first season, he’s shown a defensive toughness and effort to play nightly that has made him a fan favorite. Two NBA greats he’s been compared to are Jerry Sloan and John Stockton. Those comparisons aren’t entirely out of line. Hinrich, in 34.9 minutes a game, is averaging 11.5 points, 3.4 rebounds, and 6.2 assists. In their rookie seasons, Jerry Sloan put up 5.7 points, 3.8 rebounds, and 1.8 assists in 18.6 minutes per game, while Stockton averaged 5.7 points, 1.3 rebounds, and 5.1 assists in 18.6 minutes per game. If you double their production to match Hinrich’s minutes, the points match up favorably. Stockton has Hinrich beat on assists, but he was also playing for a Utah team that averaged 109 points per game, almost 20 more than what the Bulls manage. If the Bulls had better shooters, who knows where that total might be? While he may match Sloan in his style of play, he matches Stockton better in what his role will be to the team. Hinrich will undoubtedly be an important part of the Bulls’ future, but he won’t be a “star” in the sense that Eddy Curry or Jamal Crawford may. That’s okay. Teams need a pecking order, a sense of who does what. Even though Stockton is the NBA’s all-time leader in assists and steals, for most of his career he was content to play Robin to Karl Malone’s Batman. I can see the same future for Hinrich: he already seems to sense his role, and has embraced it without looking for press or Sportscenter highlights. As a result, they’ve come. The dilemma is how to utilize him best. Hinrich is a great piece, but he’s not a typical “franchise player” in the sense that the Bulls will build around him. Curry and Chandler seem to have that locked up for the time being. In that case, the biggest offseason need will be some accurate outside shooting to complement the developing inside game and Hinrich’s playmaking. While Hinrich won’t be hoisting the rookie of the year trophy at season’s end, his accomplishments should earn him a place on the all-rookie first team, and a place in the Bulls’ future plans. After years of drafting point guards ranging from A.J. Guyton and Khalid El-Amin to Jamal Crawford and Jay Williams since the Bulls' last championship, the Bulls finally got what they wanted . . . through a simple twist of fate. I dont think Bulls will let him go easiley?
mtlkf, Clutch frowns very much on stuff posted from the site you just used. It has no credibility here. Just an "FYI", for future reference.
The suggestion of trading francis for Heinrich and Chandler is absolutely ludicrous. It is a cardinal sin among GM's in the NBA in regards to trading an all star player with great potential for an unproven player and a mediocre point guard. Let me ask the individuals here who advocate Heinrich. Have any of you actually seen him play? He makes worse decisions than Francis. MUCH WORSE. He struggles with the half court trap. His ball handling is not that good. He is slower than Steve Francis. He only scores by hitting wide open jumpshots and threes and he's not even proficcient at that! He cannot create his own shot. And his passing is very overrated. I read somehere in this forum that we should conside Ridnour. Now let's take sanely here for once. LUKE RIDNOUR? That trade would make Stephen A SMITH's head explode. Are you prople crazy? I don't get it. The only potential trades involving STEVE would be a deal involving players like iverson, allen/barry or maybe even Redd plus other players involoved. Chandler and Heinrich, I still can't believe it!
The idea that SF has great potential is really hard to sell. I think most GM's would agree that we have seen the best of SF already. AI is same. I would much prefer SF/Marbury but I don't think Knicks will fall for that.
I don't think Chandler would be a good fit for Houston. He has no shooting touch at all! He's even worse than Cato in the offensive end. Plus, he seems having a serious problem with his back. Look out for that. There's a rumor last month saying Chander gets injuried so often because he doesn't like weight lifting and seldom follows Bulls' training program. Hinrich is the best player and the fan favorite in Chicago. There's no way the Bulls are going to trade him this season, except for Kobe. Mark my word.
Any deal involving SFrancis made this offseason would most likely involve lesser value in return in terms of pure, individual talent. That is not the point those of us seeking a move are trying to make. The point is, we have seen the best of Steve and the team, and on a squad with Yao in the middle, the results have not been acceptable. Steve is no longer a "potential" guy: A. His numbers seem to have peaked; not bad all-around for a SG, but he is the PG. B. He will be 27 next year. How many other twentyseven-year-olds are still talked about in terms of potential. Duncan, Shaq, MJ, Kobe, KG, TMac...every single Franchise-level player has hit his stride by 27. Steve is what he is. He is an All-Star, a very marketable commodity, and not the cancer some would make him out to be. But he is not what this team, and especially Yao, need as a team leader right now. Unless one of the aforementioned elite guys (Kobe, AI, RayAllen) does become available, we cannot get equal value for him because every other GM knows our position. Look what the Suns got for Marbury and the Blazers got for Wallace. You think that was fair value? No, it wasn't. And that's not the point. Both those teams had peaked as low-seed/fringe playoff teams, and neither were satisfied with that. I only hope that Les, CD and JVG won't settle either.
Blazers got SAR and Ratliff I think they got more than fair value.. you mean what the Hawks got for Sheed.. that really sucks.. I wonder why we couldnt work a deal for Sheed.. back to the topic.. someone made a great point earlier. Im tired of talking about potential we have tons of it! I want some consistency, RAllen type would be a great fit have him play the 1 or 2 and Cat plays the 1. (didnt Cat come into this league as a PG?) J
Why not bring over Brent Barry along with Ray Allen to play the one? That way, you get a team in the backcourt that passes exceptionally well, plays well together, and shoots lights out. Cat would be better as star off the bench or moved for other pieces, IMO.
^^ I agree that allen and barry would fit great on this team, but why would seattle want to trade for francis (another guard) when they need size and an above average frontcourt.
