But I did...I'm not the one whining right now. I asked all the right questions from jumpstreet. Right now? No problems. ------------------
This draft is beyond saving with the current rules. I agree with Sam Cassell that every team should put up their starters instead of finding loopholes, but why should a GM put up his starters when he sees other GM's not putting up their starters? This whole problem started last season when teams were allowed to put up 2 out of 7 players. I think 2 teams did that, and that gave everyone else the greenlight to put bench players into the draft. I'm not going to go into details, but the precedent was set. The only way to fix this is to allow teams to put up 2 of their top 7. I believe that's the only fair way to do this since some teams are allowed to throw up a bench guy and others aren't. If VOR can't put up Ceb, then I shouldn't be allowed to put up Starks, GB shouldn't be allowed to put up Cummings, and Crisco shouldn't be allowed to put up White. It wouldn't be fair to make GB and Crisco put up a current starter b/c they had a certain understanding of the rules. The reason I wasn't originally going to put Starks up is b/c I had a different understanding of the rules. I thought it was 2 of your current starters, no if's and's or but's about it. Now I see it's whoever you had starting for a certain amount of time during any stretch of the season. With those rules, then VOR should be allowed to do it. We're arguing over the difference between D. Marshall and Ced Ceballos for crying out loud. It's not like Ceb sucks either because he was actually picked up in the common draft LAST SEASON. He was starting for another team, VOR's not giving Wang Zhi Zhi, he's giving up a legitimate starter. No matter what happens, someone's going to be upset about Cat's decision. I think loosening the rules will cause less dissention than calling out certain GM's b/c they're following precedent. I'll respect whatever the cat decides to do, but I know if I can put up Starks (versus Mark Jackson) and Crisco can put up White (versus Lafrentz) and GB can put up Vonteego Cummings (versus Crawford or Fizer) then VOR should be able to put up Ceballos (versus Marshall). Crisco and GB, no need to defend what you did, you knew the rules and you're following them, just as I'm following them, VOR should be allowed to follow them too. ------------------ Beauty, was the allure that brought me close to you, Loneliness, was the bond that made me stick like glue, All fantastic images, they only are apparent, Promoted by desperate hope, That things are somewhere better. [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited June 15, 2001).]
I also did some calculations for Ceb as a starter versus Marshall as a starter. Ceballos - 17 points, 6.3 rebounds in 30.2 minutes Marshall - 13.6 pts, 10 reb, 2 asst, 32 minutes The difference between the 2 is 4 points for Ceb and 4 rebounds for Marshall. The Mavs have a better record with Ceb as a starter. The difference between the #'s of these 2 players isn't big enough for this debate in my opinion. Let Ceb go... ------------------ Beauty, was the allure that brought me close to you, Loneliness, was the bond that made me stick like glue, All fantastic images, they only are apparent, Promoted by desperate hope, That things are somewhere better.
I agree that a precedent was set. But the precedent was not let teams put up 2 of their best 7. It was a precedent that in some cases it is hard to decide who the starters where. So when players had been in competition for the startiong job. A real competition where the players had simular numbers. I think I was the only one to get to chose from 7 players, but I ended up giving the 2 guys who started most games for me AND gave me highest stats. So I can argue that I gave up 2 of my 5 starters instead of 2 of my top 7. So why did I give up the players with the highest stats? Did I really think the other was better, and hid them to keep me from giving them up? No. In fact how could I - We didnt know we where gonna have the 2nd season until just before the playoffs so that should bury that angle. The fact is I thought they gave me more. So why did i give them up if I got to chose from 2 "lesser" guys? They were not lesser guys. The stats was very simular, but I felt the players I started did better for me, but I thought the players on the bench was better for the future being younger and having greater trade value. In fact for one of the guys I gave up I thought I did wrong as if I should keep the players I still think I would be better of with Tyrone Hill over Juwon Howard. If anyone cares to check their stats this year you will see I let the wrong guy go, but luckily I traded away that bum Howard before anyone knew he was up to no good. Tyrone Hill as a starter: 13 pts, 9 rebs Juwon Howard as a starter: 15 pts, 5 rebs Eric Snow: 8.2 pts, 7.5 asst, 28 min Steve Nash: 5.7 pts, 3.4 asst, 22 min So to repeat my opinion. The decision is up to The Cat, and if he finds that Ceballos numbers are simular in production to Marshall then he should let Ceballos be a starter, else Marshall should be the starter. What we also have to remember is that no one was supposed to get 7 players to chose from this season to cut down this issue. And I can argue that although I did get 7 to chose from I didnt put in the 2 worst players. In fact I feel I put up the ones that gave me best stats (and they also started the most to prove I felt so in a season where we didnt know there would be a 2nd season and a common draft where we would give up players) My concience is good. ------------------ The CC.net NBA Sim Board/Homepage
Mavs did not have a better record with Ceballos as they lost 3 more games in the last couple of sessions, and even if they did that shouldn't matter. The production is the key. I say let Cat decide based on the numbers, and lets all support that decision. I would say Marshall assists and rebounds more than make up for the fewer points. But then again we don't know Ceballos assists (but I saw he had 0.1 ast as a backup). Cat has all the numbers including assist, steals etc so he can make an educated decision - we can't make a decision as good as we don't know the facts. ------------------ The CC.net NBA Sim Board/Homepage
Hey, if Cat thinks its okay, i have no problem with it. I am officially on the record as saying i dont think it should be allowed, but it doesnt really matter, my voice is not the only voice. Others, such as BGM and VOR see it differently, i don't mind. Next year, however, official rules need to be set down somewhere regarding the common draft and who is eligible, even if they go against precedents cuz i dont like all this questioning and arguing ****. Lets just start simming and trading again (BTW, CriscoNets are gonna rock the sim) ------------------ .,.·^*'´'|'\..........,.·^*'´¯¯¯'`*^·,...,/|'`*^·-, '|.......'|::\......,·'.....,.·:*:·,......'`i:'|.......| '|.......'|:::|.....;.......':,:::,:·.......';:|.......| '|.......|::;i - ·;i'`:,......¯¯.......,·´|::|.......| '|.......'´.......'|'i:::`*:~·.–·~^*'´: :'|::|.......'`*·-, '|........,.-:^:':'\:'`:;:: :: : : : :: ::;·'i::/`':^·.,......`'i '|..,.:'´:::::::::::'\| '`*^~·:–:·~^*'´..'|/:::::::::'`:^:., | '´:;:::::::::;:-·^*'´.....................`'*^·:;-.....:;·' ....`·;:·'´........................................'`^·:;·´
I have compiled a list in various degrees ranging from the players who should not be allowed into the draft to players than should but are still questionable. <u> Should Not Be In Draft Regardless</u> Tim Hardaway Eric Snow has played the point all year and is still on RRs team. Talent matters little here since Snow is younger and prefered over Hardaway. Sorry RR. Hidayet Turkoglu I put Turkoglu here because two rules were broken. First you can not trade for a starter then put him in the draft (last year's draft day rule). Second you cannot start a player for a few games, then put him in the draft. Sorry Cat. Here are some more players. Read Turkoglu for these players inclusion as well. Kelvin Cato Carlos Rogers John Stockton <u> Players that Should or Should Not Be In Draft "Problematic" </u> The Traded Player These players were traded for, IMO, without a clear knowledge of the draft day rule. This is partly do to the vagueness of the rule itself. Does it mean, for example, that only the players who start on your team at the beginning of the season go into the draft. Or does the time at which you trade for a player matter? I think that the time matters, but the rules are vague. Jahadi White This does not mean I think Lafrentz should be put into the draft. In fact, I would have had to put Lafrentz on this list to. Here is the deal. Crisco traded for White early in the season, so I do feel he should be allowed into the draft, but the rule was that your player and not a player you traded for had to be put in the draft - there was no time limit set then. The question is when does a player become yours as in the draft. The problem is that Crisco has very few players, if any, that he actually started with at the beginning of the season, so I'm not sure how this rule could be enforced. Here are some more players. Read White for these players as well. Jacque Vaughn Brevin Knight Doug Christie Kevin Willis Tom Gugliotta <u> Players That Should Be Allowed Into The Draft With Reservations </u> These players all started with their original team, but did not start the whole season. In some cases, a lot of cases really, I think these players were started to hide players. Some exceptions include John Starks and Damon Stoudamire. Nevertheless, all followed the rules and should be included in the draft, IMO. Damon Stoudamire Greg Foster Emanual Davis lorenzen wright cedric ceballos John Starks ------------------ I am an invisible man. [This message has been edited by kbm (edited June 16, 2001).]
If John Stockton is not eligible, I accept that, because my team is clearly better since the trade for him. But since I cannot include him in the draft, I would like some help. Eric Williams Kevin Ollie Jerome Moiso Pick two. All of thses players started for me at some point in the season and I'd rather give up any one of these than give up Stockton. ------------------ "I always thought it was something that went around my house" - World B. Free on Defence [This message has been edited by Puedlfor (edited June 16, 2001).]
You have good arguments kbm, but I think it is sad that people "work" the rule to give up "lesser" players. This is why it was Cat's discretion and his decision of who would be allowed to submit to the draft. maybe The Cat is being too leanient fearing that people get pissed up that they can't do what other does. Why can't we just accept that it is Cat decision and move on without argueing. We all can agree tha we need clear rules for next season, but I never saw the a problem with the old one if it was not for someone tried to work the rule, or someone thought others did. I can give you a couple of examples. I would have no problem to make my Aaron McKie available to be submitted as a starter, as BGM got John Starks available to the draft. But I wont do that. And why? The common draft was created to even out the raping of the earlier untaken teams when star caliber and good players were taken from those teams without compensation. The best teams did benefit huge from this draft so why cry now when you have to give up 2 of your top 5? Why try to find a way to give up your #6 and #7 guy? It is my opinion that Cat need to be strick in his judgement of this atleast against the top teams. I don't cry that bad teams get a little break in who they have to release - this only helps them to even out the raping even more - this is not helping a bad GM for having a bad record - it is evening out the injustice the rape-draft did to them. So perhaps we need to be more strick on a couple of GMs that and perhaps we need to cancel out a few trades that was made over this. We need to say to the good teams: Heath, you can not submit Aaron McKie even if he has been your best SG all year as you started other players in the SG position that did that job better. BGM, you can not submit John Starks even if he is your best SG as you did the same. Cat, you can not submit Turkuglu/Lewis as you traded down to a lesser starter and a higher draft pick in the Stockton trade. (Precedent last season). Puedlfor, you can not submit John Stockton as the trade was too late for him to be your starter (But on this I cant see why weneed to be strict as the pool is getting stronger with Stockton submitted) VOR, you can not submit Cedric Ceballos as he is not producing as good or close as good as Donyell Marshall. Perhaps we need to be stricter on the lesser teams also, but why cry over Vonteego Cummings and Jahidi White? The precedent set last year was you could not trade down - both of these was displaced by the a trade up. (As in if the trade had not happened these players would have been submitted anyway, so the draftpool didn't get weaker overthese trades) ------------------ The CC.net NBA Sim Board/Homepage
kbm, I noticed both of my players (Vaughn and Rogers) are in your "should not be allowed" category. May I ask why? ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
I still believe Stockton should be eligible for the draft. I believe the intent of the rule was to prevent GM's from trading down and acquiring starters from other teams and putting them in the draft w/o touching their starting five. Yet when I acquired Stockton, I was upgrading my PG position. John Stockton is my starting point guard and will havce been so for this last chunk of the season, and he will be my strting PG in the playoffs. I do not believe Stockton violates either the letter, or the intent of the rules for the common draft. If you di believe I am violationg the rules, then I ask you to pick my submissions for me from the three players listed above, and then ask yourself, "Is the draft pool really stronger with Kevin Ollie instead of John Stockton?" Besides, I thought I was one of the teams the common draft was supposed to help. ------------------ "I always thought it was something that went around my house" - World B. Free on Defence
Rimmy, They are in the SHOULD or SHOULD NOT category. The reason is Rogers, as far as I can tell, has not started that much for you. In fact, the only reason I put him there and not in the SHOULD NOT REGARDLESS category is because I think he was traded for early enough and did start some games. Vaughn is in the same boat. The problem with both, really, is that they were traded for. The rule last year was that no player traded for can be put in the draft. Albeit, this was a rule for the draft, and no time line was given. I do think however that vaughn at least should be allowed in the draft because he started a lot of games for you. Rogers, however, didn't start that much, like I said, as far as I can tell. And is thus more questionable. ------------------ I am an invisible man.
Eric Snow has not been my starting PG all season. He has gotten the majority of the starts, but about midseason I started Tim Hardaway for a good amount of time. I took Hardaway (Timmah has better numbers by the way) because I like Snow's defense, and he distributes the ball better (or so Cat tells me from that one practice game he ran). Talent does matter here, and while I have no doubt that you are "sorry", if you compare numbers, you can't tellme that Snow played better than Hardaway. ------------------ CC.NET Sim League Web Page My Team (Sonics) Feeling claustrophobic, like the walls are closing in. Blood stains on my hands, and I don't know where I've been. I'm in trouble for the things I haven't got to yet. I'm chomping at the bit, and my palms are getting wet. Sweating Bullets Runnin', Ravin', Endin', Out.
Poodl4, I really had no feels to call anyone out. I was just trying to do my level best to interpret the rules fairly and justly. In your case, clearly the rules would hurt your team in an unfair way. That is why the rules must somehow change. ------------------ I am an invisible man.
RR, How many players did you see in the should not be allowed category? Lafrentz is not there, and that was the initial reason I was mad. I tried to interpret the rules. In your case, you violated two, and your starter for most of the season is still on your team. You can call me unfair if you like, but according to the rules, the hardaway submission is the most clear cut of them all. ------------------ I am an invisible man. [This message has been edited by kbm (edited June 16, 2001).]
kbm, Vaughn is clearly my pest PG, thus my reasoning for him. If it would be considered more fair for me to Put Maloney in (he has started for me and is the only PG I have had all season, fine...I will not complain. As far as Rogers goes, I started him immediately after I got him, he put up good numbers, but I knew my team wasn't going anywhere, so I decided to start Bowdler to see just how much of a stiff he was (big one). I told Cat, though, that Rogers was my real starter. Again, if Bowdler is more legit than Rogers, better for me. Players I have had all year: Maloney Bowdler Mottola These also happen to be my 3 worst. The rest are all new to my team. I will gladly put 2 of those 3 up, if it is more in line with the rules. I was just trying to give better talent. ------------------ I have just realized that the stakes are myself I have no other ransom money, nothing to break or barter but my life my spirit measured out, in bits, spread over the roulette table, I recoup what I can nothing else to shove under the nose of the maître de jeu nothing to thrust out the window, no white flag this flesh all I have to offer, to make the play with this immediate head, what it comes up with, my move as we slither over this go board, stepping always (we hope) between the lines
I agree with what puedlfor said - putting up Stockton isnt against the intention of the rule - it isnt even against the rule at all. The only way it could be against the rule is that the trade came very late in the season but I do not see a problem as long as Stockton clearly is a better player than Ward. And you claim that the rule is that the player had to play on your team all season - that is not true - and in such a case Nets should have been disqualified as they are stuckwith only 1 player left The precedent set last season that you could not trade down to give up a lesser player to the draft. This was so no one should get the idea that player A is going out the window. He has a value of 100%, why do I not trade his 100% and submit and 80% player instead and then only losing 80% as you get back the other 20% from the team you trade with in form of a bench player for depth or a higher pick. The rule was never intended to block trading for better players. Meaning if you have a player 100% - you still can submit him to the draft if you trade for a player at 120% at the same position.(as long as you don't trade down for your other draft submission in the same trade) ------------------ The CC.net NBA Sim Board/Homepage
hey cat, i will discard Declerq & Dee brown I will travel tomorrow and i don´t know if i will can stay here draft day DAMNN girlssss!! i hope can post you cat my rookie draft preferences thx ------------------ VOX VERITATIS NON TACET
Actually heath, All that is true. But I also asked CAT if I could submit a player I got from another team in a trade if said player was a starter on his former team. The answer was no. Cat wanted each team to submitt their own players. And the time line was never talked about. ------------------ I am an invisible man. [This message has been edited by kbm (edited June 16, 2001).]
