If you go back yo my post- I was more nuanced- what I said was that YAO is not double teamed consistently- emphasising again, and to avoid further bivkering on this- let me quantify this, this double teaming stuff if you look at the total game - does not happen more than 30% of the time and when it does happen if is more of the "help defense" type. Scoring was never the issue - Yao never gets the ball at the right time when he is set up perfectly. It takes way too long by which time the defense gets back. The thing that change after he returned from the Injury is how he split those double and triple teams and went through with his shots ( well he had no choice as when he passed to the open guy they bricked !)
Your premise is not correct. The only team that doesnt like to double team Yao was Phil's lakers. And even Phil had to put double team on Yao after he dropped 30 points in a half against them. Yao's scoring will explode if teams dare not double team him. There is no one that can guard Yao one on one if he cathes the ball at low block, no one. Teams are realizing this, more so after he became the monster. But I do agree we need shooters that can defend, because these guys will probably spend less energy on the offensive end and they better do a good job defending. If we have role players that fit into this mold, we will be hard to beat.
Hey man, if you ever have the urge to characterize your thread as being nuanced here in any way, you should know you're already doomed. People here, well maybe only a couple hundred, really know their stuff. As I took the time to look for what you are trying to say it kept getting worse and worse and worse. I think you're making a case for Yao either taking too many quick shots or defenses fooling him in general. Or you're saying teams decided they preferred to give Yao 40 as long as he didn't hurt them too badly. Man, we all lived through this season. How Yao is, recovers, returns or how productive he is/was/will be is open for debate. But anitasari, our guy was brutalized. It's your thread, just make your point. Please.
From the Chronicle: Kings finally get the drop on Rockets / Miller scores 30 as Sacramento runs to victory JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff Yao had 19, making eight of 12 shots, and Juwan Howard had 22. Yao was able to carve out a few tough shots between and over double teams, but made just two of six in the first half. 04/10/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4095437&selectedPath=Archives Rockets get it too late / Offense works, but playoffs hopes slip away JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff But after Yao had been fouled on three consecutive touches, the Warriors sent double-team help to surround him before he could turn to the basket. 04/08/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4094671&selectedPath=Archives Kobe shakes Rockets in second half / Game gets away after teammates stop going to Yao JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff Yao had 20 points in the first half. Unclear was whether Jackson double-teamed Yao to slow his scoring or to invite his teammates to shoot. 04/03/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4090978&selectedPath=Archives Double shot of James puts Rockets on floor / Cavs star ties it in regulation, finds Ilgauskas for k... JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff Yao and the Rockets were convinced he did not foul James. Yao struggled to his 27 points, making nine of 21 shots against the usual swarms of double and triple teams. 03/27/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4086805&selectedPath=Archives Mavs swarm on Yao / Rockets drop 6th straight as one star is shut down JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff That's why they could get the double-team back to the position they need. The man comes to the double team, when they run out, we have a chance to penetrate, or shoot, or re-post, whatever we do. 03/22/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4084045&selectedPath=Archives Clippers expose Rockets' failings / Maggette's 3s change momentum as skid hits five JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff Yao his a few early shots, which was enough to bring all kinds of double- and triple-team help, usually with big men coming over top help and force the ball from his hands. 03/21/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4083150&selectedPath=Archives Even Yao not enough to lift Rockets / Center scores 36 again in loss to Mavericks JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff We're going to go to Yao and go to Yao and go to Yao," Alston said. We have to knock down open shots when Yao is drawing double-teams and triple-teams and he's passing the ball out. 03/16/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4080457&selectedPath=Archives SPURS 88 / ROCKETS 81 / Rockets find new pain / A loss to Spurs when win in reach leaves world of hu... JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff They double-teamed very hard, and it's not just hard," said Yao, who had 25 points, 10 rebounds, three assists and three blocked shots. 03/13/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4078167&selectedPath=Archives Suns collar Rockets / Phoenix sweeps season series despite Yao's 27 JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff But with the double-team attention he drew leaving plenty of open shots, the Rockets could make just five of 22 3-pointers. 02/28/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4070538&selectedPath=Archives Swift steps up in Rockets' win / Block of Rose's 3-point try for tie turns back Knicks JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff Other than Yao inside, we're a jump-shooting team," Van Gundy said. But it's always open when guys are double-teaming him like that, so when he's going like that, we try and go get the rebound." 02/06/2006 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2006_4056509&selectedPath=Archives ROCKETS SUMMARY JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff I felt so crowded in the paint," said Yao, who was 9-of-17 shooting. But I'm thinking sometimes I need to be more aggressive on the attack, because some of those double-teams are fake. 12/18/2005 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2005_4028188&selectedPath=Archives Rockets rally for overtime victory / Winning streak hits four as team surges back from late 11-point... JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff That would not have been enough had Yao not burned the Warriors' double teams, first by scoring, then by passing. 12/16/2005 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2005_4027025&selectedPath=Archives Rockets' Bowen the ignored man / Opponents loosely guard him to help on stars JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff He is the key to opposing teams' defensive game plans. I know Yao and Tracy are obviously going to be double teamed," Bowen said. 12/16/2005 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2005_4027107&selectedPath=Archives Graham latest addition to Rockets / CBA player gets callup to NBA in South Dakota JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff It's a good situation for me because teams all want to double-team Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady. 12/12/2005 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2005_4024528&selectedPath=Archives Rally falls short / T-Mac can't repeat last year's miracle finish against Spurs JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff We had to face that won't happen all the time," Rockets center Yao Ming said. Yao had 18 points in the first half, so the Spurs began sending double-team help, and he had one in the second half. 11/19/2005 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2005_4016045&selectedPath=Archives Rockets unravel again / Familiar habit of imploding late helps Heat prevail JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff They were fronting and double-teaming on the catch. In the fourth quarter, Yao took just two shots in the paint. 11/11/2005 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2005_4006156&selectedPath=Archives In fits and starts, Yao slowly rounding into form / Injury hampering Rockets center's improvement ... JONATHAN FEIGEN : Staff Flashes of brilliance But minutes later, he easily split a double team of big men to finish with a smooth layup, then beat Haywood down the floor to finish a break with an uncontested dunk. 10/24/2005 http://search.chron.com/chronicle/openDocument.do?docRef=archive_2005_3914815&selectedPath=Archives
Thanks for the references. First of all- after Tmac got Injured there was no doubt Yao was double teamed ( in some cases 3 players surrounded him). The reason- none of the others shot the ball. My point all along has been that - a greater percentage of time- and my guess is 70% of the time, Yao was not double teamed when both Yao and Tmac were healthy. Sure there was a game or two where he was breaking free and there was no way they would let yao do a "kobe" on them! Quoting Ryan Bowen and JVG is fine "That yao and Tmac are double teamed"- that is a very generic statement. But from What I have seen- and hope there are some stats to either prove one way or the other- when both Yao and Tmac are on the court- Yao is NOT ALWAYS double teamed ( which to me would be more than 70% of the time) Nothing in the posts tell me anything about how many times Yao was double teamed during the duration of the game ( or for that matter there was single coverage). To pull out games played in March and April is silly- by that time Only Yao was playing and we know what happened to our Shots after Tmac hung up.
Before you start correcting spelling- learn to know what words mean? Is that still Siting or Citing? Duh!
most of the time, the second defender doesn't help until the post player has the ball. So I don't understand what this 70 percent thing means. you don't swarm the guy until he gets the ball. Personally- I think Yao gets double teamed more than anyone else in the league (even with TMac in). He's the perfect target - a tall, lumbering, slow, deadly efficient low post scorer.
nothing against you anitasri because your threads have made my summer go by faster because it's as entertaining to read as another Skip Bayless article, but you've started some threads that have made me go kudos to your insight though
Well it is a lot better than " I spotted Sura at XXX Night club" Dont you think? If you want to debate let us forget about anecdotes- let us look at hard data.
That is a lot different than saying - Yao gets doubled All the Time- Mathematically/ factually speaking? But who the heck cares about facts ! Those are pesky little details we love to ignore. And for the gentleman who asked- what I mean by 70% he does not get doubled- Out of 100 times the ball goes to Yao- he gets doubled about 30% or so ( again I dont have solid numbers- but that is my guesstimate). I guess the rest of you believe it is 70%- let the facts decide this one.
Let's be very clear the Yao before surgery and the Yao after foot surgery are 2 different players. The yao before foot surgery didnot have to always be double teamed the Yao after surgery was arguably the most dominant player in the league. This irregardless of Tmac on or off the court. Yao cannot be quarded by one player. I only wish teams would decide to double him 30% of the time. Yao would eat them up alive. Perhaps only Miami with Shaq can get away with that to some degree. No other team has anyone player that can guard Yao one on one and they know it. And while they may attempt to do it for short spurts, they quickly realize the stupidity of their judgemet and when that happens then come the double and triple teams. Do not speak of Yao before foot surgery . He is no longer that player. He will kill any team that chooses to guard him one on one. So double and triple teams will come. You can bet your life on it. Whether that's 30%, 40 %, or 90% they are going to come. And even was only 30 % (which we can only hope for) that's still 30% of the time another Rocket will be open on the court. Wouldn't it be nice to have one of those players standing behind the arc as accurate a shooter as JJ. If you say no than there is no point in further discussion for your mind is fixed and no amount of logic would change that.
Seriously what is the point of your 30% guesstimate in the first place. Obviously Yao doesn't get double teamed every single time he gets the ball. There are tons of games where he gets single coverage at the beginning, starts scoring at will, and the defense changes up on him to either deny him the ball or hit him with multiple defenders. So what happens next? Do you adjust right back or do you sit on your hands because the percentages say that Yao won't get double teamed X percent of the time. That is what basketball is all about. Adjustments. Being flexible. Making long-term decisions like roster moves based on the variable strategy of the opponent doesn't take into account that strategies change. Teams can do different things against you. In this case if Yao gets doubled 30% of the time, but we aren't any good at punishing the doubles, then that percentage will certainly go up. We need to be able to make those adjustments, because if we don't have the threat to be able to bring in a shooter, then teams can collapse on the paint at will. Hell, I don't even want Redick. Not at #8. Maybe if we traded down. So while I may agree with you on Redick, your reasoning is utterly flawed. Because Yao does get double teamed a lot, and more importantly gets double teamed in key situations. And because if we didn't have the ability to counter-attack with shooters, Yao would get double teamed much more.
In your first post: I agree with you that we need a shooters with Size who can defend, but the problem is I do not get your logic in reasoning so by reading your post. First you say Yao only get double teamed after TMac's injury, later, you say Yao get double teamed 30% of the time in the game. Ok, then if we assume Yao is only double teamed after TMac's injury, how could you say without a doubt that other teams will not double team one of our stars when they are both healthy? I do not see the logic here. Note: TMac started to have injury problem early in the season, so, there is not enough samples for us to conclude Yao only get double teamed after TMac's injury.
Frankly i wish there were stats that could settle this. I am working on that and will post if I can get anything close to what is needed to decide one way or the other. Let us just say he gets serious double teams 30% of the time ( no help defense, fronting etc)- let us also assume Redick is your man waiting on the 3 point line. Let us also assume he has a 45% accuracy on 3 pointers. If Yao gets 20 possession- that would be about 6 kick outs to the perimeter player- the offensive production would be 8 points. Now how much will Reddick give up on defense against quality teams like Dallas, San Antonio, Memphis, Lakers ( just to name a few). That is why i would think Redick will not work in a system where shots are limited ( JVG choreographs that under 80 shots - more like 75). Anyway what you are making a case for is a 3 point shooter ( specialist)- the name on the shirt does not need to be Redick- any guy who can shoot and can match up defensively would do bettr- I would think Frahm is no way a bad choice if you are looking for a 3 point specialist- and you wont have to waste a 8th pick on Redick. If Redick can play with Josh Howard or Manu- sign him up. It is the differential that matters ( Offense Vs Defense)- not what a player can do offensively.
