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Donald Trump Indicted

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by don grahamleone, Mar 30, 2023.

  1. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    This whole episode reminds me of those warnings people might give children about how it's important to not lie, spinning out a yarn about how a little lie can lead to more lies to cover up the original lie and how it soons gets so big you can't manage all the lies anymore. It's a bit comical.

    Trump starts with something that is not a lie, just not the whole truth. He had sex with someone not his wife and is afraid voters might think ill of him if they knew (if only he understood back then that it would only make his base love him more!). So he makes a payment to keep the truth from being told so he wouldn't be in a position where he has to lie. In order to make sure that agreement isn't revealed though, he has to lie to the FEC about the nature of that payment. He has to lie to journalists about any payment being made. He has to lie to the voters about making that payment. To keep his story consistent, he has to the IRS about what the payment was for, and to lie to the IRS he had to cook his own books and lie to the Trump Org. He has to lie to the FBI when they come asking. Then he has to lie about Michael Cohen so he can be the fall guy. And at this point, since he didn't lie well enough, we already know the truth of it all but he hates admitting he was wrong so he keeps on lying to us even though we plainly don't believe him, including those who have already forgiven him and now tells lies on his behalf. Now, he's going to lie to the court and a jury of his peers and try to trick them into thinking that somehow he didn't lie to the IRS, didn't lie in Trump Org books, didn't lie to the FEC, and didn't lie to the American electorate.
     
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  2. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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    Falsifying records has to be tied to coverup of a crime. NDAs are not a crime.

    FEC already looked into this issue and declined to pursue.

    Bragg is not charging Trump with lying to IRS or FBI (and has no jurisdiction to make that charge).
     
  3. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Member

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    I think you missed the intent of this post. I'm not talking about the legal transgressions Trump has committed. That post is about the quagmire of lying and how lies beget more lies.
     
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  4. adoo

    adoo Member

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    ur not a lawyer.

    Trump's Justice Dept, considered the circumstances / concealment surrounding the hush payment a felony, amount to criminal activities, for which Cohen was indicted and went to jail.
    according to the former head of SDNY, the indictment against then-POTUS was written. Main Justice, under Barr, intervened and ordered SDNY not to do so.

    Bragg and his team of lawyers also consider the circumstances are criminal. The judge assigned to the case is already ok with the indictment.

    who to believe,

    • you, the non-lawyer or
    • then head of SDNY, Jeffrey Bermain, as well as current DA Bragg ?


    what an easy choice?

     
  5. adoo

    adoo Member

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    https://bbs.clutchfans.net/threads/trump-grifts-loans-and-investigations.306654/page-8#post-14486429


    [​IMG]

    Berman had previously volunteered to work for the Trump campaign; Trump's first AG, Jeff Sessions named Berman as US Attorney for SDNY after orange hair had fired Preet Bharara

    in his book, Berman shows that under Trump, Main Justice was a haven for lackeys all too willing to do the big guy’s bidding. He accuses Trump of weaponizing the justice department,
    pushing it to prosecute his critics and enemies while sparing his friends.

    After Cohen's guilty plead on the hush payments to Stormy Daniels, SDNY had forwarded its 40-page summary describing the payments and all parties involved.
    Main Justice ordered SDNY to delete all references to individual 1, reducing the summary to 19 pages.
    Also that SDNY was not to do any investigation on the hush payments without the approval from main justice
     
  6. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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  7. Xopher

    Xopher Member

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    The FEC investigators recommended pursuing. However, the commissioners deadlocked 2-2 along party lines.
     
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  8. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    It only has to be with the intent to create another crime not actually having committed it.
     
  9. Kim

    Kim Member

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    Me. Read my long ass researched post about Cohen having not committed FECA violations. It's based on logic, supreme court precedent, and well-researched. I'm not telling you to believe me as in credibility. I'm trying to have a logical and nuanced conversation about the law.
     
  10. Kim

    Kim Member

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    But the other crime, campaign finance violations of FECA, was not really a crime. It was a dumb man with dumb lawyers sucumbing to a federal prosecutor. I know that reads crazy, but it's true. It happens. Just because Cohen pled to it, doesn't mean it's a crime. John Edwards had weak charges brought against him. Bob McDonnell's conviction got overturned 8-0. It happens.

    The argument is that the Stormy expenditures were to influence the election and thus, illegal. The problem is they don't count as campaign expenditures per Supreme Court precedent. I asked ChatGPT do give me examples of what SCOTUS defines as campaign expenditures and here is what I got (I already knew the answer):
    ...
    In summary, Supreme Court precedents have established that the "for the purpose of influencing any election" language in campaign finance laws must be narrowly construed to apply only to express advocacy or its functional equivalent. This means that messages that do not contain explicit phrases advocating for or against a candidate are generally not considered expenditures for the purpose of campaign finance law.


    That is consistent with the rest of FECA. The law is meant to 1) prevent politicians from using campaign funds for their personal purposes and 2) to prevent hiding campaign funds sourcing and using them for campaigns without disclosure. And it's not a campaign expenditure unless it's a very narrow expressed purpose. So again, if Trump secretly paid Cohen to make a commercial with Stormy to say "we love Trump, please vote for him," then that would be a FECA violation with undisclosed money "for the purpsoe of influencing any election."

    After reviewing the statement of facts by the DA, it's just a mess. Just my dumb opinion, but I'm asking you to think critically. If this leads to a conviction, then there will be an overturn on appeal. This case is terribly weak. I'm hoping that it doesn't screw the national narrative around the Georgia case, a real felony.
     
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  11. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    One has to wonder how far off the reservation one has to go before the commissioners abandon their partisan ship.

    If George Santos does not have to sweat the FEC, ...
     
  12. ROCKSS

    ROCKSS Member
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    I am not a lawyer, nor did I sleep at a holiday inn last night so I am not smart enough to know the "rule of law", but I hear arguments from both sides that sound valid. As others have said, "no one is above the law", and I am sure the DA in NY is not talking to the DOJ about their case nor is he talking to the Ga DA about his case, but I would prefer the Ga or J6 or the secret documents case to go first, simply from an optics standpoint, they "seem" to be better cases and have substance. This case in NY, while I am sure is not proper and even breaks some laws if he can prove everything just doesn't seem sexy enough for the first indictment against a former president. The NY case seems like one that should go last and if they did well with the first 3, you might just blow it off. Now I will say I hope that Bragg has every T crossed and every I dotted, if your going to go after trump you better have your A+ game because the court of public opinion will matter. I heard one pundit say the Ga case could actually go first if they "indicate" quickly ;)
     
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  13. FranchiseBlade

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    I trust your analysis. Though I feel like lying about taxes would be the easiest other crime to link.

    Either way, if they don't win this case in court, I'm okay with that.
     
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  14. edwardc

    edwardc Member

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  15. Kim

    Kim Member

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    I haven't thought too much about the other underlying crimes because the statement of facts reads like narrative:
    https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000187-4dd5-dfdf-af9f-4dfda6e80000
    The tax thing looks to be Cohen potentially lying on his taxes, which is weird. Also, Cohen is denying that he lied on his taxes. It's just a weird case. I also wish it went last.
     
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  16. larsv8

    larsv8 Member

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    For those looking for the crime....

    Falsifying your records is used to avoid taxes.

    Tax evasion is a crime.
     
  17. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    First domino to fall. He will likely end up settling this case once he’s tied up with the larger crimes.
     
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  18. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Member

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    Asha Rangappa takes a swag at two possibilities (featuring her expensive graphics):



     
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  19. CCorn

    CCorn Member

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    Idk which trump is a criminal thread to post this in. Does Pence actually have a spine?

     
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  20. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    From Russia, With Love.

     
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