It wasn't meaningless, but I think Sam's point was it was a play that almost any one of us could've gotten 20+ yards on. Every Texas defender was 30 yards down the field, so dumping it underneath left him wide open without a defender anywhere close. I don't want to make it seem like the play was irrelevant, but it was a cheap 27 yards that anyone could get given the circumstances of that situation.
Yeah, I know what you're saying & pretty much agree, cat. He did, iirc, beat a couple of defenders who took poor angles to the sideline. Not sure just "anyone" has that kind of speed. It's just not really correct to say that he got a huge chunk of yardage on a meaningless play. It wasn't meaningless, and he still would have had 150 yds from scrimmage without it. But I really don't care enough to argue about Bush & the Rose Bowl anymore.
Cat made my point better than I could. "Meaningless" was probably the wrong word, "uncontested" would be better. A 20 yard pickup versus a prevent defense is easy to do, because all the defenders are playing deeper than that. I don't like prevent defenses myself for just that reason, other than on the last play of the game.
I love the prevent defense, especially in the 4 quarter of playoff games. I mean, what could possibly go wrong? Sincerely,
Bush can break tackles better than Davis? Are you kidding? He's great at making people miss, but he breaks VERY few tackles. That's why it's so surprising that people lump him in with all time greats. He doesn't break tackles. At least not in the games I saw.
Yes. Any of us could have gotten 27 yards in 5 seconds (potentially giving USC 2 potential plays instead of 1 if Leinart couldve hit a quick out pattern). If you have the Rosebowl DVD, he beat Michael Griffin to the corner at the 50 for an additional 9 yards. Reggie Bush is probably one of the fastest, if not the fastest player in the NFL as soon as he steps onto the field. And tell me once again how Eli Manning was rated higher than Reggie Bush
Michael Bennett is probably the fastest player in the NFL, and most people here don't even want him on this team. How far did his speed get him? If you want, we'll take away the additional 9 yards. Still doesn't change the fact that at least 2/3 of that play was incredibly easy. Also, in a sport where 0.4 seconds per 40 yards is the difference between fast and slow, you'll have a hard time convincing me that the difference between Bush and an average back is more than one second (and probably none). You've got some serious revisionist history issues. Manning may have been the most anticipated draft pick other than Vick of this entire era. He commanded a high first round pick (everyone knew the Giants wouldn't be good) and a high third round pick along with pick #4 overall (a guaranteed shot at either Rivers or Roethlisberger) to move up only three spots. If the Texans had a trade offer like that this year, they likely would've moved down in a heartbeat. As would the Saints, even though they won't admit it. I don't even like Eli Manning all that much, and don't see what he did to deserve that hype. But to act as if that hype didn't exist is some serious, serious homerism (or maybe anti-homerism in your case). No, I don't know how to prove it. Of course, neither you do. But all the ESPN talk - one of the best prospects ever - was there for Manning as well. Many claimed he had potential to be even better than Peyton, who obviously is already a Hall of Famer. I think Manning got a lot of the hype based on his last name, and if I personally were rating Manning and Bush, I'd rank Bush higher. But, we're not talking about what we personally think... we're talking the buzz around the league, and Manning had it. Big time. I think you need to go back and watch the Rose Bowl DVD you suggested. I've watched it repeatedly, and each and every time it becomes more obvious to me that he likely wasn't even the best prospect in his own draft class (take a look at #10 in white in the same game to see that)... much less the best prospect ever.
1. If you take away the 9 yards, Bush still wouldve had 160 yards which is hardly irrelevant or inconsequential, including the streak down the sideline to put USC up 31-23. 2. You are the one with revisionist history. Eli Manning was NOT the most highly anticipated prospect until there was speculation that the Giants might trade up to get him because of their desperation for a QB. It was the Giants, with about a 100 year waiting period for season tickets, who created the anticipation and not the player himself. Below is a comparison of the scouting reports which did not even have Manning as a sure lock to be the #1 pick, unlike Bush who was expected to be #1 from day 1. I posted this in another thread which we were having the same debate. I assume you "didn't read it" (or chose to ignore it) the first time so I'll post it again. ELI MANNING Position: QB Class: Sr School: Ole Miss Conference: SEC Ht., Wt.: 6'4½, 221 40 Time: 4.92 Grade: 5.06 Selected by New York Giants Round 1, pick 1 (1 overall) BIO: Three-year starter awarded numerous honors since his sophomore campaign. All American, all-conference and SEC Offensive Player of the Year as a senior when he also won the Maxwell Award as the nation's top collegiate player and Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award, handed to the top senior quarterback in the country. Finished 2003 with passing numbers of 62.4 percent/3,600/29/10. Second team All-SEC as a junior when he became the school's career leader in touchdown passes and finished the season throwing 58 percent/3,401/21/15. Earned honorable mention all-America honors from several media outlets as a sophomore in 2001 after numbers of 63.5 percent/2,948/31/9. All-academic selection in the past and carries a 3.44 GPA. Brother of Peyton Manning of the Indianapolis Colts and son to former Saints passer Archie Manning. POSITIVES: Smart, instinctive passer with a great feel for the game. Sets up with solid footwork, senses pressure then steps up to avoid the rush. Patient, buys as much time as possible and remains calm as the pocket collapses around him. Sells the ball fake, sees the field and finds the open wide out. Quick releasing the pass, puts zip on his throws over the middle and nicely times the outs. Goes through receiver progressions, knows where his pass-catchers are on the field and puts touch on throws when needed. Gets outside the pocket if pressured and accurate throwing on the move. Lets receivers run to the corner routes putting air under his throws. Always in total command of the offense. NEGATIVES: Deep throws lack speed and must improve his accuracy down the field. Lacks the quick set up or ability to immediately get the ball off on a three-step drop. Does not display the same pinpoint pass placement his brother did coming out of college. ANALYSIS: By himself, Eli is a top prospect worthy of the first pick in April's and a quarterback that can lead a team at the next level. Yet with that he'll constantly be compared to brother Peyton and does not possess the same detailed nature or overall quarterback intangibles. Should be graded on what he is; a terrific prospect that can quickly start at the next level and deliver early returns. PROJECTION: Early First Round Reggie Bush Height: 5-11 Weight: 200 40 Speed: 4.35 E Position: Running Back College: Southern California Final Grade: D 7.0 RET SUMMARY Bush is a player that everyone has been screaming about all season, and it's clear that he is an elite talent. He has good height for a running back and, while he is thinner than ideal for his height, within a season or two he will naturally add 10 pounds or so as all players do when they mature in their early 20s. Bush is similar to Marshall Faulk when he was a San Diego State star and he will be best utilized in the same type of role that Faulk has had in St. Louis. He is not going to be a running back in the NFL who gets 30-plus carries a game, but will eventually be able to handle 15-20 carries, 4-8 catches and return punts. Overall, Bush is going to make an immediate impact in the NFL with his ability to make game-changing plays once he is in the open field. While many people say you cannot risk using Bush as a returner, he is the type of returner who can change games and singlehandedly win the field position battle for his team. CRITICAL FACTORS Size Athletic Ability Hands Competes Play Speed Blocking 5.5 8.0 7.0 7.5 9.0 5.0 STRONG POINTS Bush is a remarkable athlete with the vision and instincts to take advantage of his athleticism. Once he sees the hole, he has shown the ability to stick a foot in the ground and can explode off his cut and through the hole in a flash. He gets behind the defense very fast and has the playing speed to outrun the angles to take plays the distance. He is a dangerous receiver out of the backfield and consistently has shown the ability to make great catches and then makes big plays running in the open field. He runs tougher than you expect between the tackles. He Will lower his shoulder and deliver a blow to the tackler. He is a very dangerous returner whose quickness, elusiveness and playing speed make him a touchdown threat on every return. WEAKNESSES Bush is a little thinner than ideal for his height and lacks the size and strength to break tackles consistently in the NFL. He carries the ball too loosely and does not get it into his outside arm consistently. If he is this nonchalant with the ball in the NFL, he will fumble. He is not a consistent pass blocker and often gives just an adequate effort and his man pressures the quarterback.
You posted two scouting reports. I didn't overlook it at all. But considering the hundreds of draft sites, scouting services and individual team draft gurus out there, you need more than two scouting reports to prove a point. You're right, I did choose to ignore it... it's all about sample size. Also, I was talking about taking away 18 yards, not 9, to clarify. Of course, it doesn't matter because lots of players get cheap yards like that from time to time. But people are usually objective enough to recognize it, while most people are too blinded by Bush's speed and flash to see his negatives. The hype was from ESPN's analysts that had no connection to the Giants, and they did so well before the draft started and the trade rumors to the Giants got intense.
i agree on you on this one. i live here in southern california so i basically saw almost all of the usc games and i havent seen reggie bush break tackles. BUT, he is so damn well eluding tackles! he's so fast that he jukes defenders left and right. honestly, at first, i was so dissapointed with the texans when they didnt draft bush but now, i realized that we didnt need bush that badly. i think we are fine with dominick davis, antowain smith, and hopefully michael bennett as our backs. we have a 5-10 yard inside pounder with smith, we have the fastest back in the league with bennett (if we do get him), and a regular 10 yard runner with davis. i think our backs are just fine without bush.
Mix that in with an Offensive scheme that Kubiak runs and has proven to turn 6th round backs into 1500 yard rushers and im fine with it too.
1. I subtracted the 18 yards. 177-19 = 159. So I rounded up to 160 Objectively, most people would recognize 160 yards of offense against one of the top defensive teams in the country is exceptional considering it was not his best game (more by lack of use than ineffectiveness) 2. You are the one who is claiming that Eli Manning was hyped up. I gave you evidence to the contrary while you have provided nothing to support your assertion. Eli Manning was considered a good/great prospect but he was never the "best in a decade" type player. He wasn't. This is an article from the NFL.com site. Show me one where it says something similiar about Eli. By Vic Carucci National Editor, NFL.com NEW YORK (April 29, 2006) I'm still trying to sort this out. Not because it torpedoed my mock draft along with countless others. I'm long over that. I'm just trying to figure out why the best player in the draft is not the top overall pick. Mario Williams might have been chosen No. 1 overall ... No offense to Mario Williams. He can be a difference-making, game-changing force. I just don't think he will be as much of a difference-making, game-changing force as Reggie Bush. Williams plays defensive end, and the Houston Texans will no doubt make good use of his considerable pass-rushing and run-stopping skills. But Bush is much more than a player at a position, which happens to be running back. He can make an impact running with the ball or catching it or just standing still and forcing the opposing defense to guess what he might do on a given play -- and be unprepared to handle what someone else actually does. Bush is a dynamic presence, the likes of which come along only once per decade. You simply can't pass up a chance to select such a player. Well, you can, and the Texans did. But doing so is a risk. Actually, it is a massive gamble. Bush video Reggie Bush on being selected by the Saints with the No. 2 pick Click here to watch Head coach Sean Payton on choosing Bush That's because, at least for the coming season and very likely beyond, the Texans will be dogged by a question: Why? Why did you give up the chance to draft someone who could have done so much to help a struggling young franchise possibly take a major step forward? The only way the question won't be asked, or at least won't be raised with the same degree of derisive second-guessing, is if Bush flops with theam that did choose him, the Saints. I don't expect that to happen. I have talked to numerous people who are paid to evaluate college prospects for NFL teams. All of them pegged Bush not only as the best this draft had to offer, but the best that many drafts in recent years have had to offer. I did not hear similar comments about Williams. I heard plenty of good things about what he should do in the NFL, and that he has the tremendous size, speed and strength that any team would love to have in a defensive end. I heard favorable comparisons to Carolina's Julius Peppers, arguably the best and most complete defensive end in the game. What I didn't hear were comparisons to some of the greatest defensive ends in the history of the game -- someone like, say, Bruce Smith, whom the Buffalo Bills made the top overall pick in 1985 and who went on to become the league's all-time sack leader with a reserved spot in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. On the other hand, I heard plenty of comparisons between Bush and running backs such as Gale Sayers and Marshall Faulk. ... but Reggie Bush is still considered the best talent in the draft. I think the Texans are sincere in their belief that Williams was the better choice. I don't think it was simply a case of choosing the guy who was easier to sign. The Texans made a football decision. They concluded that he would do more for their defense, and, therefore, more for their team than Bush could do for an offense that already has a decent running back in Domanick Davis and the X-and-O prowess of new coach Gary Kubiak to get the most out all of the incumbent offensive players, especially quarterback David Carr. In the end, owner Bob McNair and general manager Charley Casserly decided that Bush wasn't going to make the sort of difference to justify the top overall pick and the many millions of dollars that go with it. I respect that. I also respectfully disagree.
For added measure.... By Vic Carucci National Editor, NFL.com (April 10, 2004) -- In light of the April 9 trade that saw the Denver Broncos and Cincinnati Bengals swap first-round draft picks, here's an updated early look at how the first round of the 2004 NFL Draft could unfold: 1. San Diego: Eli Manning, quarterback, Mississippi Analysis: Although there are all sorts of rumblings about the Chargers trading out of this pick, it continues to be theirs and it continues to look as if Manning is their choice for long-term quarterback stability. Analysts who have studied videotape of Manning's pre-draft workouts weren't as overwhelmed as one would expect for a projected top overall pick. The Chargers shouldn't fear they might be getting another Ryan Leaf, but there doesn't seem to be much of a talent gap between Manning and the next two highly rated quarterbacks in the draft, Ben Roethlisberger and Philip Rivers.
Reggie Bush had to sit out most of the plays during the first day in mini camp...he tweaked his hamstring. Should be fine though, but still, I will stand by my initial thoughts that he isnt a guy that can consistently carry the ball 20+ times a game.
Vic Carucci, national editor of NFL.com, is in his 27th season of covering the NFL. He is a past president of the Professional Football Writers of America. He is connected throughout the NFL. He quotes scouts and analysts. His comments were based on scouts and other NFL professionals. He is not Merrill Hoge (or you) talking out of his arse. Im still waiting on the Eli Manning article (other than from the Giants) about how he was the best prospect in a decade.
Merrill Hoge isn't talking out of his arse, as much as I disagree with him. Having connections with scouts and analysts... wow... that's something only thousands of other sportswriters also have. Hell, the sports editor at the paper I work part-time at here in Beaumont has quite a few connections with NFL scouts and a few connections with front offices and has quite a few inside tips on how teams are thinking. This is a sports editor at a city with no professional team and only about 120,000 people... if he has this, what do you think the editors and reporters at the hundreds or thousands of cities larger than Beaumont across the country have? So, forgive me for not bowing down to Vic Carucci as the ultimate god of NFL reporting because he has "connections" and "quotes scouts and analysts." Every sportswriter and analyst worth anything has many of those same connections and uses them to make their predictions. As for Eli Manning articles, it's a bit more difficult to find archived articles of more than two years of age than it is to find your Reggie Bush articles. I also don't have a tape of the ESPN draft coverage that I can review to quote people on. It's a bit more difficult when you're dealing with history of a couple of years as compared to a couple of weeks.
Then how did I find my scouting report on Eli Manning and the NFL.Com article? Those were from 2 different sources. That was 2004 not 1986. I have shown you 2 scouting reports and 2 different articles. You have shown squat except ranting about what you "remembered". The reason you can't find them is because they don't exist. I have provided sources, including those that discuss Eli Manning. You have provided sh*t. If there are thousands of sportswriters with NFL connections and Eli Manning was hyped as prospect of the decade, surely you can find a few. Keep looking and when you find squat, blame it on archived articles that were never written. Unicorns and Eli Manning.
The internet was down in 2004 when Eli was drafted so no records existed. Let's go back in time when there were things you can access: From 2001 and the hype: By Stewart Mandel, CNNSI.com Florida State may have won the 2000 Sugar Bowl, but 10, 20 years from now, the thing most people will remember about that game was that it launched the legend of Michael Vick. It was the first time we saw what will by then be the predominant breed of quarterback, the guy who can destroy defenses with both his feet and his arm. I know it seems ridiculous, all the hyperbole that's been thrown around about this kid in the 15 months since that memorable performance, but trust me, it's all true. Vick does things with his feet no one has ever done before, and he has a cannon arm to boot. If Vick can avoid injury, if he ends up in a system innovative enough to showcase him, and with a coach patient enough not to rush him, the "Michael Jordanof the NFL" analogy won't seem that farfetched. And let's face it, the NFL needs Vick. With the possible exception of a St. Louis Rams game, professional football these days is about as exciting as C-SPAN. More and more it seems like the players are just pawns, with the higher premium being put on successful coaches and coordinators. A guy with the skills of Vick would put the emphasis back on what the fans want to see: exciting players. Because no defensive scheme, no matter how masterfully crafted, is going to shut him down. Much of what Vick does is improvised anyway, so you can't prepare for it. No one is saying Vick will come in and take over right from the start. He's going to take his lumps like any other rookie quarterback, maybe more so because of his youth. He needs to work on his accuracy and his decision-making. But given a chance, Vick is going to revolutionize the sport. If his team and the league are willing to accept his unconventional ways, he's going to give them a jolt of energy. And if they don't, so be it. I just won't watch.
