Does Toronto really have no say in where Bosh wants to go?

Bima, I respect you a lot, but I disagree with you about this.

First, you say Morey is one of the top 5 GMs. What is your criteria? What has Morey done? Has the rockets won a title after he became the GM? Is the current rockets team better than the team in CD era? Has Morey landed a superstar for the rockets? At least, CD drafted Yao and made a trade to land Tmac? Has the Toyota center become one of the best selling tickets arena in the league?

Of course, I don't think Morey is a bad GM. He does have his own thing. He did draft a couple of good players in the late 1st round and in the 2nd round.

 

Okay then, if you dont think Morey is a top 5 GM, who is your top 5?

 

Yeah I'll do that as soon as you list a team that totally refused to complete a sign and trade because they were unhappy with their compensation. You're pulling a theoretical scenario out of thin air that is basically unheard of in the history of the league. As for the TMac trade, I'm talking about the influence of his agent on making sure that TMac ended up in New York. Tellem is friends with Donnie Walsh and also is the agent for Tyreke Evans so he could threaten Sacramento if they attempted to trade for TMac which was a rumor near the deadline.

 

The only instant contender line-up I see is the Super Bulls. But what would they have to give in a SnT?

Also, with all the FA's out there I guess the Bosh/Dwade Heat could field a competitive team. Anyone want to speculate on what that starting 5 would look like? (Can the Heat offer up first rounders in a SnT?)

They will be competing with the Knicks for the same second tier FA's to fill out an entire roster. The bidding between the two may limit the results of both.


The Rox may not be in Bosh's plans at all, I suspect between Miami and Chicago we aren't, but it makes so much sense for all parties involved, a good agent would have to present us as a viable alternative. We've got the best assets to trade, a good team 10 players deep, bigger marketing options than even NY, a great coach and owner ... it could turn our way.

 

Toronto doesnt have to take any kind of package. If he leaves, they will have about 10m in free agent money. The leaving 30m on the table is very overrated in regards to bosh. He can sign a 3 yr deal and become a free agent again before he turns 30.

 

Not really because teams with cap room do not have match salaries. Chicago and Bosh can say, I'll give you a future protected pick and Toronto really doesn't really have any choice but to accept. Its either lose Bosh for nothing or lose Bosh for a pick.

 

I completely agree with you.

 

Bosh has leverage but so does Toronto. For one, (as stated several times), if he wants a sign and trade, he has to make Toronto content with the terms. If they get a **** roster back, whats Toronto's incentive...nothing! So they could just decide to clear their roster of his money and go after other free agents themselves (highly unlikely but that is the leverage that they have).

I really think its almost a 50/50.

 

Yes I knew T-Mac still had another year on his contract but his situation is kind of similar to Bosh, but yes I do see what you are saying. Toronto does not have as much control as Orlando did.

And yes great point about the Lakers. They are stacked but if a team like Chicago (the team that is rumored to most in acquiring both Bosh and LeBron) adds those two guys, I would have to say Chicago is the best team in the league with D-Rose Noah Deng Bron and Bosh.

 

I agree that the Bulls could conceivably put together a roster that can contend with the Lakers. Add two max guys (among Lebron, Wade or Bosh) with Derek Rose, Joakim Noah, Luol Deng and (the often overlooked) Taj Gibson, and the Bulls should have at least 7 good players.

As for Miami, I think they would be best served, if they can't get Lebron as one of their two other max guys (besides Wade), to just bring back Wade, add Bosh, and then use the rest of the cap room to either re-sign some of their own guys or to possibly sign a third-tier guy. I could see the following lineup being a plausible scenario for Miami (again, if they can't get Lebron):

Mario Chalmers / [Luke Ridnour or Chris Duhon?]
Dwyane Wade / [John Salmons?]
Michael Beasley / Dorrell Wright (re-signed) / Da'Sean Butler
Chris Bosh / Jarvis Varnado / Latavious Williams
Udonis Haslem (re-signed) / Dexter Pittman

 

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Got Scola for Spanoulis. Drafted Aaron Brooks in the late first round. Got Landry in the early second round. Flipped Donte Greene for Ron Artest. Drafted Chase Budinger in the 2nd round. Used Landry and McGrady's corpse to get Kevin Martin, Jordan Hill, a pick and a swapped pick (both likely lottery). Has not made a move that has hurt us at all. Even his misses are low-risk high reward types. Has put us in position to get a star player via S&T or outright trade while still maintaining most of our young assets.

This argument that he hasn't done anything and isn't all that great is like playing against an expert Chess master and saying he sucks and fails while he orchestrates an unstoppable attack before he puts you in checkmate. Then, giving him credit after he does so. Was he any less awesome before he put you in checkmate? No, the result just takes time to get to. The moves to get there are just as awesome now as they would be if we do land a Bosh.

Well he's spent the last 3 years cleaning up CD's mess, so...

 

My criteria for a good GM?

(1) Good evaluator of talent: Check. He has proven that he has a great eye for talent. And I'm not just talking about Aaron Brooks, Carl Landry and Chase Budinger. He has targeted several players (Brandon Roy, Rudy Fernandez, Ricky Rubio, Derrick Favors and Demarcus Cousins, to name a few) unsuccessfully who either have become good or are expected to be very good. He understands which talents and traits translate most directly to team success.

(2) Handle of salary cap management: Check. Morey has managed to add a boatload of young talent while only having about 40% of the salary cap figure with which to play. While much credit goes to Les Alexander, Morey has mastered the concept of using second round picks to dump bad contracts (mostly to "cycle off" of the bad deals he inherited, plus the Francis contract that Les made him give out) and get below the luxury tax, then using the savings to buy better second round picks.

(3) Be able to pull off the big deal: Check. The McGrady-Martin deal may go down in the annals of history as one of the most brilliantly negotiated trades in NBA history. No joke. Morey managed to (a) get the best player in the deal (Martin), (b) add young, cheap talent (Hill), (c) add future draft picks AND (d) get under the luxury tax. As a student of the salary cap, I can objectively (well, at least as objectively as possible) state that Daryl Morey is a truly GREAT general manager. Not good. Great.

Are you serious with this? Morey has played the hand he was dealt. Unfortunately, the majority of his salary cap has been occupied by two players with injury problems. Are you telling me that if the Rockets had won the lottery and gotten the #1 pick with Morey as GM, that HE wouldn't have gotten a franchise player with that pick? The T-Mac trade was great, but that had as much to do with Tracy demanding out of Orlando as anything. Morey is trying to do the same thing now with Bosh, but the deck is stacked much more against him, since Toronto doesn't have nearly the leverage that Orlando had in 2004.

Actually, this is not part of Daryl Morey's job description. That is Tad Brown's job as CEO of the Rockets.

 

I hate it when people say this.

Yes Bosh could do that,and basically "get his money back" when he signs a new contract in 3 years, however...

If Bosh were to get injured in the next 3 years, he is SCREWED ,and possibly could lose MORE than just 30 million, he could literally lose 80 million over 4 years.

Look at it this way,he signs a 6-7 year guaranteed contract in sign and trade with rockets he gets 128 million no state tax.

Look at Tmac as an example. Just 2 years ago Tmac(at 28) was a STUD and possible mvp candidate. He was leading our team to a record setting 22 wins in a row. Going head to head with Chris Paul ,Rockets would come out on top. Then just 1 year later(at 29) he is getting microfracture surgery and his career is OVER just 1 year later and watching Artest and Yao get success.

Bosh could have this happen. Look at Amare. He was about 22 years old healthy and all of a sudden gets microfracture surgery. No team would offer Amare a max at that point. It took him about 2 years to prove himself.

Bosh has a history of sore knees,and a rumor out of Toronto says he is a medical mess. Very gangly body will lead to injuries like Kevin Martin.

Bosh doesnt have the strong base like Pat Patterson,Hayes,even Yao. Bosh has chicken legs and so did Tmac.

Bosh would be an idiot to turn down 128 million guaranteed and "hope" he doesnt get injured signing a 3 year contract to play with Wade.

Look at it this way, Wade is 29 I believe,Wade's teams have literally been terrible the last 4 years,and Wade has had injury problems,std's,and Bosh has broken down every season with his left knee. Do you honestly believe Riley should team up a 3 year contract with Bosh,and wade, and beasley,chalmers,and 12 scrubs, ...what I believe is that they wont win past Lebron in those 3 years.

At that point Wade will be 32 going 33,Bosh would probably have a sore knee , and Riley would be seriously questioning does he give Bosh a 4 year contract extension worth 80 million to play with Wade from 32-36? Bosh might even turn it down because he wants to WIN now,he wants to win a few years from now,he wants a strong core,a young core,and no state taxes,...and at that point there might not be another team with the cap space to sign him should his 3 year experiment not work.

No state taxes literally will save him about 1 million per year from his large income.Florida also has no state taxes,Ny does. His options are clear, Florida or Texas. Miami or Houston.

All reports are saying Joe Johnson is guaranteed to sign in Chicago with or without Lebron. Gay is going to Ny. Riley wants a rebounder. Riley would be happy with amare,bosh,boozer, but man, we tried that. We had a prime Tmac,prime Yao and did NOT win anything because they were surrounded by scrubs. Think 2005 Mavs series. 2 guys isnt enough. Kobe/Pau cant win without Artest,Fisher,Odom,Bynum,Phil Jackson,. Riley even said yesturday it takes "5" to win. I dont know what his plan is. Signing Brendon Haywood(center) to play with chalmers/wade/beasley/bosh just isnt going to get it done.

brooks-chalmers
martin-wade
ariza-beasley
bosh-bosh
yao-j.oneal
scola-haslim
budinger-miami scrub
patterson-miami scrub
lowry-miami scrub
battier-miami scrub
brad miller-miami scrub
taylor-miami scrub
coach adelman-coach pretty boy

You tell me who has the better lineup.Actually when I look at it, its pretty close,we dont know if Yao will ever play,and Wade literally is as good as martin/brooks combined. Comes down to bench and Yaos health and coaching.

 

Wait...so do we want Bosh? You're making a pretty strong argument against it even if you don't mean to.

 

1 & 2 are very basic works for a GM. If Morey hadn't done those, he would be fired by Les. You know, I asked ceriteria for a top 5 GM.

Regarding 3rd one, we don't know the trade would workout yet. We will see. If Martin sucks as a rocket, his long term salary will put the rockets in a bad situation.

Of course, I am serious. If Morey decided to tank and played young players more for the last season, the rockets could have the #1 pick.

As a GENERAL manager, he cannot say he has ZERO responsibility for it.

 

A+ for Chapman, excellent post.

 

BTW, I never said Morey is a bad GM. I said he has potentional to be a great GM, but right now, he is a young, inexperienced GM.

Just like, he is at the level of Evans or Jennings right now, but some rockets fans say that he is at the Lebron or Kobe level.

 

Adelman developed and played the young guys, got a winning record, and the Rockets could have had the #1 pick. So what's the problem?

 

I would think that Miami could give them Beasley and perhaps take on Turk's bad contract as well (swapping Beasley for Turk is only a net of about 5 million on the cap so it doesn't completely screw over Miami this offseason). It's roughly the same scenario with other teams to lesser degrees as well.

Also... it's worth mentioning that Miami or New York could give Toronto things back, and they don't have to match salaries. Houston has to include 15 million in contracts to even be in the conversation. So if the going rate for a Bosh S&T is like a Beasley or Chandler/Gallo or Hill/Patterson and a few picks, then not having to take back the extra 15 million in salary (even if its for 1 season) is an advantage Miami and New York have over us.

So to answer your question, we would first have to actually have the best offer on the table. Something that is another story on it's own. If we actually did then I dunno, maybe he goes after the money, maybe he wants the city more.

 

I guess there's just no pleasing some people.

Let's see. The New Jersey Nets won only 12 games last season, put their fans through hell, and ended up with the third best guy on their draft board (allegedly).

Meanwhile, the Rockets play without their two best players, STILL finish above .500, play an entertaining brand of basketball, AND get the sixth best guy on their draft board.

Sure, Favors has better potential than Patterson. But he could also be a bust. I'd much rather have had the season the Rockets had last year than the one New Jersey had. Plus, as you say, the Rockets did have a chance at the #1 pick.