PLUS!!!!! Having watched JVG throughout his NY years in addition to being an Atlantic Conference watcher back when, I can tell you that JVG and T-Mac WILL NOT MIX. If you thought SF and JVG was a powder keg, watch out with T-Mac. JVG demands less ego from more of his players (with the exception of say Yao) and more trust. Under JVG, T-Mac's shot attempts will get cut down SUBSTANTIALLY from what he's used to from back in Orlando yet JVG will look for higher percentage shots as he does from SF and Cat. I doubt that T-Mac's productivitiy will be appreciably better than either T-Mac or Cat. All this talk about T-Mac being a defender when he wants to be is nonsense too. He either IS or ISN'T a good defender and quite frankly, he's NOT. He's never been a good defender b/c he doesn't apply himself on the defensive end. The Orlando system was shaped to suit T-Mac and Grant Hill as much as possible and NEITHER of them are good defenders. Offense is what they focus on but Orlando could never score enough points to win consistently. JVG preaches big-time heart when it comes to defense and big-time efficiency when it comes to offensive productivity. To date, in his young career, T-Mac has demonstrated NONE of these qualitites to suggest that he'd fit w/in a JVG system. SF, meanwhile, has shown a willingness to adjust, adapt, and accomodate. IMHO, these trade proposals are ludicrous and the Rox are better off directing their attention AWAY from the show and more to substantial things like a power forward. theSAGE
sooooo Sage. I take it you are against the trade? heh...just funnin ya... Im a bit worried about this also....but Im torn by what he could be if we get him and if he can work with VG... call me.... undecided R2K
hi Rockets2K Long time no chat. Yeah. I'm trying to remain the "voice of reason" here on these boards - not too optimistic, not too pessimistic - but trying to pull everyone back on the path of objective reason. At the end of the day, I think it really comes down to the "cost to us." It's all about risk and reward and NOT the superficialities of how nice it would be to have T-Mac name printed on our roster. As much as it's exciting to entertain the notion of having T-Mac on the Rox, I just fear making the same mistake that GM's all around the league make in treating the off-season as some sort of fantasy league, when it's NOT. Another important facet is chemistry. Quite-frankly, I can't assure you that T-Mac will work out under the JVG regime. In fact, the evidence from past history suggests the contrary. And in the meantime, SF, despite his differences with JVG, has shown us something insofar as his adaptablity and willingness to work with JVG and that's something tangible we can hang our hat on... more so than the offensive numbers of T-Mac which are biased b/c of his role on a losing team. Lots of interesting takes but like yourself, I guess I'm undecided until the final terms of the deal take shape. theSAGE
I don't know how long you've been a basketball fan but star players have gotten plenty of coaches fired. Magic Johnson got Paul Westhead fired. MJ got Doug Collins fired. As far as attitude and using the media. I gave you an example of Hakeem and how he may have feigned an injury to escape his contract and mediocre Rockets team. Kobe and Shaq have been using the media all season. Kobe does not like Shaq or Phil Jackson and doesn't want anything to do with either of them. It's in the media everyday. Kobe is leaving a championship team to pursue his own agenda for more spotlight and recognition - how's that for attitude. How do you think MJ wouldve felt if instead of adding Pippen and Horace Grant, the Bulls plugged in Andrew Declerq and Reece Gaines. Professionalism? How about pouting on draft night because the "wrong" team drafted you. Irony galore. This is the NBA.
ok, great. But quoting hoopsworld destroys your point rather than makes it. Re: He's never been a good defender- the guy averaged nearly 2 blocks a game as a 2 guard. Off the bench. He garnered a few first place NBA All Defense votes even if he didn't make the team. Re: efficiency- In what universe is 45% shooting for a 30 ppg shooting guard NOT efficient? You'd help your case a lot if you didn't mention efficiency, defense, Steve Francis, and Jeff Van Gundy altogether. One of those things doesn't belong, and it's not efficiency, defense, or Jeff Van Gundy. Can you guess which one it is?
hi REIT, IMHO, No single player should supercede the team and the same goes for the coach as well. There's been great articles written on Phil Jackson and how he brought MJ back into the fold insofar as getting him to share the ball in the Triangle offense and away from this me-me-me attitude. Yet superstar or not, there's more evidence from history that when a player supercedes the team insofar as importance, franchise success becomes that much more elusive. There as just as many coaches, if not more, who have left for reasons of getting fed up with the very ego attitude problems among NBA players as there are that were fired b/c of a superstar player. Larry Brown - 76ers Lenny Wilkens - Raptors Rick Adelman - Portland Byron Scott - Nets the list goes on and on... But with respect to T-Mac, here again is a situation where the guy is USED TO BEING "THE MAN." where as "THE MAN" he superceded the team in many respects. It's truly a Catch-22, but I don't buy all this whining about how "if I don't score then our team can't win." Part of the problem with Orlando these past couple of years has been to find people who can play alongside T-Mac under the guise that he WAS the franchise. For four years, you can't tell me that Orlando mgmt didn't TRY to build the team. Notwithstanding the Grant Hill contract (which was yet another bum decision on their part), Orlando could never find the right mix of players with the right chemistry alongside T-Mac. Who's to say that he'll have chemistry with the Rox??? theSAGE
Simple. When you're playing for a losing team where 3 out of 4 plays are set up for you b/c you're shooting over 25 times a game. This your classic apples vs. oranges comparison. Just as people who complain about SF's higher productivity back when, when he was the only game in town on a team that couldn't make the playoffs. Orlando has been a marginal playoff team, at best, in a WEAK conference. Thus, EVERY stat on his stat sheet should be marked with an asterisk. In the end, it's the Ws that matter, and from the total package point of view (offense AND defense) SF is far more productive insofar as helping a winning team than T-Mac is on a losing team. Moreover... Does T-Mac make his teammates better? Does he play both ends of the court? To quote Larry Brown: "it's about playing the right way." theSAGE
My word, "offense AND defense" in the same context as Steve Francis? Isn't that an oxymoron? Suddenly, Francis plays both ends of the court, due to one year of so called "improved D" which actually is equivilant to stating Mo Taylor improved his rebounding. And T-mac plays no defense, due to one year of playing in a horrible team, where he was forced to focus his energy on offense and disregard defense. Despite the fact, before so, he was known for his defense aswell as his offense, and even lead his team at one point in blocking? Indeed.. As for your last two questions. In comparison to Steve? Yes, T-mac would make his teammates better. For one, he is not a hesitant passer when he needs to pass, being a solid consistent SG scorer. Steve is a hesitant passer when he needs to pass, hell even when he wants to pass, and he's a PG. Most importantly, you give him a reliable big man, and his entry pass will be close to automatic and dependable. And two, T-mac's offensive game, is consistent and respectable enough that no opponent is going to go double Yao with a clear conscious. And ACTUAL defensive game, will definitely relief the defensive pressure on our interior people. You most assuredly have not seen T-mac play defense, it's simply lockdown defense. While Steve, plays ZERO defense. I'm sure all you people that speak of Steve's "improved" defense, must've really gotten yourselves confused in the mix and speed of the game, not to mention possible hopeful wishes, saw Cat playing defense and thought it was Steve.
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/spor...n20,1,2311152.story?coll=orl-sports-headlines Orlando Sentinel, June 20th So T-Mac is on the tarmac, pretty much, ready to flee to more fertile land. The Orlando Magic are about to trade a superstar, and in all likelihood, some contender is about to gain the player it hopes can propel it to a championship. For Tracy McGrady, the future seems delightful. But there's still the complicated little matter of which team snags him and whether McGrady, at 25 and having shown significant flaws, is truly prepared to win like he never has. Plenty of teams are willing to take that chance. The Indiana Pacers, Houston Rockets and Phoenix Suns are among the teams with the best chance to get McGrady. Even the Lakers are interested. But knowing General Manager John Weisbrod, who is crafty and secretive, he is negotiating with more teams. Several NBA sources believe Portland, which asked about McGrady's availability in February, has tried its luck. The Blazers' roster is among the deepest in the NBA, and it will take a deep team to meet the Magic's asking price. Since the possibility of dealing McGrady became a whisper, teams have bombarded the Magic with inquiries. Now that it is a certainty, Weisbrod has several deals to consider. The Magic intend to trade McGrady, not toss him to a team of his choice. Weisbrod is determined to make as good a deal as possible. McGrady has considerable say in this -- he has the card of an opt-out clause in his contract after next season -- but it's not as simple as the Magic will trade McGrady wherever he wants to go. Indiana is trying to consider how much it needs to change to go from an Eastern Conference finalist to a champion. The Pacers again are frustrated with defensive player of the year Ron Artest, according to The Indianapolis Star, and it's likely the Pacers would include the all-star in a deal with the Magic, which could be a deal-maker. McGrady likes Houston because of the good weather and Yao Ming, but the Magic must wonder whether point guard Steve Francis, who'd be included in that deal, is too much of a headache. Phoenix has much good young talent, but it appears the Magic won't be able to get Amare Stoudemire or Joe Johnson. Another NBA source said the Detroit Pistons could have some interest, though they wouldn't want to do too much to change a championship team. McGrady, who attended the Los Angeles leg of the NBA Finals, was spotted hanging out in Detroit's L.A. hotel. Regardless of where McGrady goes, he will arrive there at a critical point in his career. He is 25 and close to entering his prime. He's done the wide-eyed high-schooler thing in Toronto. He's done the superstar, spread-your-wings thing in Orlando. If he wants to become one of the best players of all time, he must win at his next stop. It's something he has talked about constantly the past three years. Yet after a year of frustration -- and after a year of being perceived as acting spoiled, disinterested and problematic -- there are questions about whether McGrady can complete a championship team. "I think he can," said Boston Celtics Coach Doc Rivers, who tutored McGrady in Orlando for more than three years. Rivers said he was aware of the belief that some think McGrady never will change and become a legendary player, just a very good one in this era. In fact, Rivers' Orlando staff used to debate it. "If you polled a bunch of guys, including my staff, the vote would be split," Rivers said. "You know what I always say? I'd like to find out. I'd like to take that chance." If McGrady goes to Houston or Indiana, or if the San Antonio Spurs choose to play this game and win, he would be playing for coaches notorious for not accepting nonsense. Could McGrady coexist with the likes of Jeff Van Gundy, Rick Carlisle or Gregg Popovich? It's a fair question. The source of the feud between the Magic and McGrady involves how the organization went from coddling him to trying to punish him after Weisbrod took over as general manager. There is a sense that McGrady got everything he wanted, and then Weisbrod wanted him to fold into an all-together-now concept. Weisbrod was hard on him, as was Johnny Davis, the new coach. McGrady didn't understand why he was being singled out, and the relationship worsened. Now the Magic publicly are questioning McGrady's work ethic. His appointment as team leader was a mistake. And people wonder about his game, whether he has become just a shooter instead of an all-around offensive treasure and whether he will learn to play with intensity on defense. "The issues are legit," one source said. "I don't know if he'll ever change." Rivers said a better team could cure some of McGrady's problems. "You can get on Tracy," Rivers said. "What you can't do is get on him every day. It's very difficult to lose five games in a row and get on Tracy McGrady, and you know he scored 40 points the night before. A lot of times I would push Tracy to do something, and he would be like, 'What do you want me to do? I'm carrying the team.' To have to carry the offense and be the team's best defensive player is a load. I feel like if we would have had better talent, you would have seen a better Tracy McGrady." Rivers recalled a time in 2002, when Grant Hill looked healthy and performed well, and McGrady played his best. This makes him believe that putting McGrady with another star, preferably a big man, will help. "I've seen him when he plays with great intensity and energy in practice and games," Rivers said. "As good as we've seen in the NBA, you can count that times two. He's that good." A trade could inspire McGrady to reach his full potential. As a rookie in Toronto, former Coach Darrell Walker once said that, if McGrady remained on the same lazy path, he'd be out of the league in three years. McGrady made Walker sound silly. "The best thing about me is the unknown," McGrady once said. "You just never know what I'll do." Jerry Brewer can be reached at jbrewer2@orlandosentinel.com.
Sage: You make good points. However, I have always been of the opinion that to win big in this league, you have to dare to be great. Only one team in the league can win the championship each year, so in the end 29 teams are losers. So then, what's the big risk anyways? Do you really think with this current group we're headed anywhere fast? If you think so, well then that's a completely different discussion. The fact of the matter is that the Rockets just can't win with this team as currently comprised. The reasons have been discussed ad nauseum over the past months. You may feel that Steve Francis is a great player and that's fine. But you have to agree with me that if we win a championship, it will have to be through Yao Ming. If that is the case, we can't be paying max dollars to a player who proved last year that his game does not mesh well at all with Yao's. It doesn't matter how hard Francis plays or anything like that, the fact of the matter is that it's not smart budget appropriation. You can't be paying $10 million/yr to a guy who's strengths aren't being utilized in your system and whose flaws (turnovers, inability to lead a fastbreak, decision making) are greatly magnified due to his position on the team. You might ask, "if we're going to win through Yao, why are we trading for McGrady?" Simple. I had no problem whatsoever with Francis's shot selection last season. I also thought he played very unselfishly. The problem was that he just wasn't good enough. Tracy McGrady makes those shots that Steve Francis missed. He is a scorer in every sense of the word. He doesn't need to have the floor spread wide open to operate. Setting aside McGrady for a second, if everything above that I said about Steve is true, and you agree with me that he simply isn't a good fit, why not go after the best possible player available? Remember those times when teams fronted Yao and we hopelessly tried to dribble through zones with Francis, to no avail? That doesn't happen when the league's most lethal scorer is also on the floor. Ultimately, to win in this league, you have to take risks. Why not take this risk when the potential reward is SO great? Everyone in this league not named Tim Duncan comes with baggage. Trading away Vlade Divac for Kobe Byrant was a huge risk. Sacramento put itself back on the map by trading for the troublesome, injury prone Webber. Detroit wouldn't be coming off a championship had they decided to stay away from Wallace's problems. Hakeem was selfish and "faked an injury." We wouldn't even be having this discussion had the Rockets played it safe and drafted Jay Williams. You have to take the risk on T-Mac. What's the worse that could happen? You can always trade him for another team's starting lineup if things don't work out.
Must-read material: http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/columnstoryS0620PETERYY.htm A snippet: The drama is in waiting to see what Orlando will get when it trades what one e-mailer aptly described as Tracy McGrady's million-dollar talent and 10-cent work ethic, as well as what the Magic will do with their first overall pick in Thursday's NBA Draft. The Magic first heard whispers back in December that McGrady wanted out. Then, during the All-Star break, T-Mac openly told fellow superstars his days in Orlando would soon be over. What sounded like an ultimatum from general manager John Weisbrod at the end of the season really wasn't. The Magic just wanted McGrady to publicly say what he'd been privately saying for half a year.
Hakeem also led a team to the Finals in his 2nd season. He had crappy teammates from '87 on. Hell, he STILL had them, comparatively speaking, when he won his first championship. The Hakeem from back then would win the East with what McGrady has by his side today. TERRIBLE comparison.
