If they ever do this, it would be the first time. Where do you terrorism apologists come up with this stuff?
I don't think anyone will really respond as "oh yeah, terrorism apologist, that's me." Atrocities are atrocities, unjust violent acts are unjust violent acts, no matter what you call them. And if you'll follow the link I posted above, you will see that, yes indeed, Palestinian children are being killed by Israeli soldiers. Unless you think all the bodies are some sort of publicity stunt by those crafty Arabs, I think that's just one of the many horrible facts of the situation.
They might, or they might not. What's happening now isn't working. I think something new should be attempted. If it doesn't work, then the UN can station peace keepers etc. And the Palestinians might actually see that things are changing and their bombings might decrease.
Perhaps slaughter wasn't the most appropriate word but the Israelis haven't had the best of records when it comes down to children being involved with these clashes. Terrorism apologist? Are you kidding me? I am in no way in favor of terrorist actions some Palestinians take but keep in mind the majority of these people don't run amok with bombs attached to themselves. This is a small minority but people like you like to call all of these people terrorists. So I guess you would call all muslims terrorists since UBL practices and justifies his fanatical Jihad by his twisted interpretation of Islam?
B-Bob, The existence of dead children as a result of an Israeli attack is no more an indication that they sent "organized military personnel into Gaza to slaughter children" than the existence of a dead wedding party in Afghanistan proves that we went over there to disrupt wedding ceremonies. X-PAC, Just because the majority of the population does not strap on the bombs, that does not absolve them of culpability. They (majority of Palestinians) support the suicide bombers, and they allow them to live amongst them to hide them from the Israelis. These are the people I call terrorists. The peace loving farmer that is being oppressed, that the liberals want you to believe is 99% of the population is actually a minority and an unfortunate victim of their neighbors stupidity and hatred. I feel bad that they are killed, but I don't begrudge Israel the right to defend herself and her people. If Palestinian militants weren't a bunch of p*****s, they would have their military bases away from neighborhoods like everyone else.
If the cops are oppressive, brutal, and use disproportionate strength, then I don't have a problem taking their guns away, and if necessary sending in UN peace keepers to patrol.
what if the UN "peacekeepers" are oppressive, brutal, and use disproportionate strength in order to wrestle away control of the unarmed populace?
The problem is that the bombings aren't about military response. They are about religious fanaticism and the simple fact that the Israelis are there. The attacks will continue regardless of what the Israelis do -- unless they leave.
FD, I think it would take some analysis of the details. Was there a battle with armed Palestinian forces? Or was it an intentional attack on a civilian center to show Hamas that the Israelis can respond in kind? Obviously, if it is the later, then it was terrorism.
It just baffles me when the Paletinian groups called for a peace and did so for over six weeks, and the Israeli's did not agree to a cease fire and continued with their assasinations of "terrorists" Of course it seems that anytime they send a missle into the middle of a city and many people are killed and injured, only terrorists usually get hit. I think the Israeli's are using 9/11 to prey on our sympathies for the recipient of terrorist acts. And today......more settlements are being built. This means more Palestinian's are being thrown out of their homes into refugee camps and more people are angry, frustrated and in despair. My main point in posting this was that perception changes everything. When a Palestinian group assasinated Zvi (Last name I forgot), the housing minister, it was terrorism and tanks moved into gaza and killed many Palestinians; yet when the Israeli government targets Palestianians in a building, shoots a missle into a downtown building and kills over a dozen people and sometimes the one they wanted. What is the difference?? If anything, Israeli tactics are just as despicable as Palestinian ones. The only difference is that Isreali guns are a lot bigger courtesy of the USA.
I think it basically goes down to the question of 'what is terrorism?' Mostly it is defined as an action designed to strike fear into a specified group, rather than achieve actual damage that cripples a particular targeted objective. So when Hamas runs a suicide bomber into a pizza parlor, it is terrorism. Why? Because that action is not designed to kill every Jew in Israel. It is designed to create overwhelming fear disproportionate to the actual action. When Israel attacks a building that houses civilians and Hamas members, they are not doing it to create overwhelming fear, they are doing it to kill the Hamas members. Hence, it is not terrorism.
Thanks for that stunning analysis. Do you perhaps want to show me what part of my post you disagree with, and why? It is because it would be a pretty effective tactic to follow every bombing with a call for peace, thus negating any chace for a response. It really isn't that baffling.
Dear StupidMo**er, If you'd read my post (concept!), I wasn't talking about slaughter. So far, you appear to be flip with the death of children, which is incredibly ironic to me given your posts in other threads. All I was saying is that a violent and unjust act has occurred if even 1 child has been killed by (take your pick) Israeli soldiers, a suicide bomber, a US bomb on a wedding party, etc. Do you dispute that? Is a Palestinian child's death more "justifiable" to you than an Israeli child's death? If so, that's some thin moral ice, IMO.
Aug. 14, 2002 Palestinian women sell jewelry to buy food By KHALED ABU TOAMEH Fayzeh Subhi walked into a jewelry shop in the center of Ramallah Wednesday morning and asked to speak with the owner. She looked around to make sure that no one was watching and whispered into the man's ear that she had a few bracelets and necklaces that she wanted to sell. "I need to sell them today, because soon the children will be going back to school and we don't have any money," she told the owner. Fayzeh, 38, the mother of six, who works with one of the Palestinian Authority ministries in the city, said her husband, Zakariya, an accountant, has been without work for more than a year. "In the beginning my parents were helping us, but now they themselves need help," she explained. "We have also spent all our savings, and now we have decided to sell the jewelry that I got for our wedding. Most of the money will go to paying debts, especially to the grocery." Until two years ago, Ramallah, home to some 80,000 Palestinians, was the "economic capital" of the Palestinian Authority. Hundreds of Palestinians from the West bank and Gaza Strip flooded the prosperous city in search for employment and entertainment. Many new businesses, including fashionable cafes, discos and restaurants, popped up and several top PA officials bought spacious villas in the city. The intifada has changed everything. Women once stood in line at jewelry shops to buy rings, earrings, and necklaces just for the sake of spoiling themselves. Now they enter the shops only to sell their jewelry, sometimes at very low prices. At another jewelry shop a few meters away, Majedah Salman and her mother-in-law are bargaining with the owner over the price of three golden rings. Majedah, 24, bought the rings from the same shop for her engagement only a year ago. Then, she said, she paid NIS 2,500 for the shining rings. Now, she is being offered less than NIS 1,000 for them. "We have no choice," she said as she walked out of the shop. "This intifada has destroyed everything. We are paying a very heavy price and no one seems to care about us. [PA Chairman Yasser] Arafat doesn't care if we sell our jewelry or not. He and his men have billions of dollars." ---------------- Oct. 9, 2002 Suicide bomber's father blasts son's recruiters By KHALED ABU TOAMEH The father of a Palestinian who carried out a suicide attack in Israel earlier this year has attacked Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders for sending his son on the fatal mission. He also questioned the effectiveness of suicide bombings, saying they have failed in deterring Israel. In a letter to the editor of the London-based Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat, the father, who identified himself as Abu Saber, wrote: "I can find no better words with which to begin my letter than the words of Allah, in his precious book [the Koran]: 'Act for the sake of Allah, and do not throw yourselves to destruction with your own hands.' I write this letter with a languishing heart and with eyes that have not ceased weeping. "We must, today more than at any other time, obey this Koranic verse, act for the sake of Allah, and refrain from carrying out acts that will throw us to destruction." The letter is a reflection of the heated debate that is taking place among Palestinians regarding the effectiveness of suicide attacks. Many Palestinians believe the attacks have only aggravated the situation and caused more harm. Others, however, insist that the suicide bombings have created a "balance of terror" with Israel. The father said that four months ago, he lost his eldest son when his friends tempted him, praising the path of death. "They persuaded him to blow himself up in one of Israel's cities," he said. "When the pure body of my son was scattered all over, my last signs of life also dispersed, along with hope and my will to exist," he added. The father said in his letter that now he is concerned that the same people who dispatched his son were trying to recruit another son for a similar mission. "The last straw was when I was informed that the friends of my eldest son the martyr were starting to wrap themselves like snakes around my other son, not yet 17, to direct him to the same path toward which they had guided his brother, so that he would blow himself up too to avenge his brother, claiming 'he had nothing to lose.'" He appealed to the leaders of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad to work toward putting an end to the suicide attacks, saying this was not the way to deter Israel or liberate the homeland. "From the blood of the wounded heart of a father who has lost what is most precious to him in the world, I turn to the leaders of the Palestinian factions, and at their head the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and their sheikhs, who use religious rulings and statements to urge more and more of the sons of Palestine to their deaths knowing full well that sending young people to blow themselves up in the heart of Israel deters no enemy and liberates no land. "On the contrary, [it] intensifies the aggression, and after every such operation, civilians are killed, homes are razed, and Palestinian cities and villages are reoccupied. "I ask, on my behalf and on behalf of every father and mother informed that their son has blown himself up: 'By what right do these leaders send the young people, even young boys in the flower of their youth, to their deaths?' Who gave them religious or any other legitimacy to tempt our children and urge them to their deaths?... Yes, I say 'death,' not 'martyrdom.' Changing and beautifying the term, or paying a few thousand dollars to the family of the young man who has gone and will never return, does not ease the shock or alter the irrevocable end. "The sums of money [paid] to the martyrs' families cause pain more than they heal; they make the families feel that they are being rewarded for the lives of their children... Do the childrens' lives have a price? Has death become the only way to restore the rights and liberate the land? And if this be the case, why doesn't a single one of all the sheikhs who compete amongst themselves in issuing fiery religious rulings, send his son? Why doesn't a single one of the leaders who cannot restrain himself in expressing his joy and ecstasy on the satellite channels every time a young Palestinian man or woman sets out to blow himself or herself up send his son?" The letter concluded by launching a scathing attack on Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders who refuse to send their sons to carry out suicide attacks. "But what tears at the soul, pains the heart, and brings tears to the eyes more than anything else is the sight of these sheikhs and leaders evading sending their sons into the fray such as Mahmoud al-Zahar, Ismail Abu Shanab, and Abdel Aziz Rantisi. The moment the intifada broke out, al-Zahar sent his son Khaled to America; Abu Shanab sent his son Hasan to Britain; and [as she stated to the press] Rantisi's wife has refrained from sending her son Muhammad to blow himself up. Instead, she sent him to Iraq, to complete his studies there." Credit Jpost.com ------------------------ I believe the media has done a lax job of covering the conflict fairly. On the Palestinian or Israeli side. There is no reason in trying to understand such brutality and ruthless aggression by suicide bombers. I am not apologetic on behalf of these people but the entire nation of these people do not support these terrorists like Hamas. But we also have a problem with the Palestinian leadership as they do absolutely nothing to discontinue bombings or assist their own people. But to be fair if you recall King Hussein’s ‘Black September’ butchery of thousands of Palestinians in Jordan in 1970, to the 1976 massacre of thousands of civilians at the Tel Zataar Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon by militias acting under the protection of the Syrian army, when the prospect of any real independent struggle of the Palestinians against their oppression had come about, these Arab regimes’ hands have scarcely been cleaner than Ariel Sharon's. Even with this no one not the progressives or human rights groups, who claim to be leaders of human rights atrocities, acted on the situation or even displayed any ounce of concern. But yet Israel becomes a target for criticism today by these groups and some of the media. Is it fair? No. But is killing Palestinian civilians fair? Of course not. You see there isn’t one true admirer in this conflict. It is a lot easier to be ignorant about the situation and choose one side and call the other evil but this is not a simple dispute that will disappear within a few weeks, months, or years. This has been going on for thousands of years. These people are being raped of their children by these charismatic religious fanatics. They drop these kids in their graves so that at least one or two Israelis are killed. The Israelis then seek to avenge (understandably) the deaths of theirs and in result add to the total death toll by killing anyone protesting (not as understable) their march into their communities. Granted the Palestinians are placing their arms dealing and bomb making facilities in these populated areas but you can't just drop a bomb on the entire community or a missile in order to eliminate one of these buildings because they can take out the facility itself and perhaps get a wanted man or two while killing a bunch of civilians in the process. This is very risky stuff. But a better effort could be made to limit the number of civilian casualties. Simply because they are Palestinian doesn't make them suicide bombers. Ahh, if only the media and these ridiculous sideshow progressive groups were fair. I apologize if I confused anyone I am of two minds on this matter. The articles above were written by an Israeli newspaper.
Your posts were a response to my post in respone to X-PAC. X-PAC did in fact say that Israel was sending troops to slaughter children. When you tried to rebut my statement, you were implicitly supporting that allegation. I take the death of children very seriously, as I take the death of all innocents. That is why I am appalled that Palestinian militants put the innocent Palestinians in harms way. Just as I do not blame a cop that hits a hostage that is being used as a human shield, I do not lame the Israeli who hits the Palestinian that is being used as a human shield. I do dispute that a violent and unjust act has occurred if even 1 child has been killed. I do not think the attack on the wedding party was unjust. It was a mistake, the pilot thought he was being fired upon. I also do not agree that the Israelis are the ones committing unjust acts when a child dies as the result of a bombing or a raid, for the reasons I gave above. IMO, if the Palestinians handed over all of the terrorists and did n ot attack Israel any more the violence would stop. If Israel handed over the land to return to pre-1967 borders, it would not. That is why I see Palestine as the offending party and why I support Israel. I do not think that Israel has done no wrong, but the are far less culpable as far as I can tell. BTW, what is the deal with this: Dear StupidMo**er?
X-PAC, Those two articles are members of the minority peaceful population I was referring to. In regard to this: What is your suggestion to the Israelis that would a) destroy the weapons and terrorists and b) result in less loss of life than bombing the building.
Well the Israeli intelligence first and foremost needs to improve. After the offensive that killed a key leader of Hamas back in the end of September Sharon denied having any prior knowledge of civilians in the area. But there was indeed a large number killed. This can't be the excuse everytime. Most people above all the Arab nations won't buy it and the possibility of any other nation getting involved would be disastrous for the region.
