Jeff, while I certainly respect you and your position, here are some counter-arguments: I don't think it's fair to not place any blame on the NBA here. I think it is pretty obvious that the NBA and its media partners like to highlight the big dunks and power moves more then the shooters. And what made the high-school players ditch the jump shot in favor of dunks anyway? Why, the desire to emulate their high-flying NBA role-models naturally. The NBA might not be the only cause of this problem, but they certainly did not help to undo the damage either... Again, I would argue this could be equally pinned on NBA players who dominated the rim, encouraging high-school followers (and their coaches) to use the same tactic. I just don't think its feasible that high-school play influenced the NBA more then the opposite. That just doesn't make sense. Kids model their play on the pros, not vice-versa... True, but the college argument can again arguably be turned around. Personally, I think that is kind of sad. I think you are right, don't get me wrong, but to say that what we all want to see and should want to see is dunking and one-man exhibitions pollutes the "image" of basketball sport as I see it. I want a team game. I want the passing and the shooting as well as the dunking. What the league has done is not only try to revitalize the "scoring" aspect of the game, but also (inadvertantly perhaps) renew the "team play" concept and "other-moves-besides-dunking" concept. I like that. --rhad
Well, to answer the original question, it helps us. We have the perfect team to beat zones. Yao - dominant big man, frees up shooters, and superb passer. Francis - Can penetrate through defenses, draw attention, then dish out. Pike - quite possibly the best shooter in the league alongside Wes Person. MoT, Francis, Yao - Can all hit the midrange J VERY consistently, a mustwhen you have shooters to spread the floor and a dominant C to demand attention under the basket. JVG knew what he was doing when he signed Pike. I've said very often that Pike, despite the limited minutes he'll get, will make a HUGE impact on this team. His mere presence on the floor makes up for his defensive defficiencies, because if they double Yao, either Francis or Pike will burn them all day. Pike will take this team up a notch, and don't be surprised if he sends the vastly improved Mobley to a 6th man role.
Juan: There are those who believe that Colangelo got so involved in the rules changes because it was his team - the Suns - that would be most helped by zone defenses. Clearly, they still suck at defense so it didn't help. The fact that no coaches or players were involved in the rules changes simply made a mockery of the game. At the time, I thought it was a horrific idea to have guys like Colangelo and Stu Jackson deciding the fate of the game. Still do. rhadamanthus: I'm not saying the NBA doesn't have a responsibility in the matter. Of course they do. But, my point is that there were easily as many high flyers in the late 70's and early 80's. No one was better at it than Dr. J and yet shooting was still at a premium. IMO, the problem lies with the sponsors, particularly the shoe companies who give large "grants" to high schools and colleges who produce the flashiest athletes. If you are a high school coach that consistently turns out high calliber athletes, you get jobs at Nike summer camps or running these high school "all star" exhibitions. Kids get free apparel and shoes. Their main concern is filling the stands and great singular athletes do that. It wasn't until the mid-90's that we really started to see the effect of that. Michael Jordan and the NBA were blamed but the truth is that it wasn't until these major sponsors began targeting young kids around the same time that we began to see the serious fall-off in shooting. I'm not saying the NBA isn't to blame. I'm just saying that you can't just expect a poor shooter to enter the NBA and become great. That doesn't happen. However, I totally agree that the league has a responsibility to help foster the growth of fundamental basketball skills at the middle school, high school and college level. That is good for everyone.
Personally I believe that Zone hurts us more because it makes it hard for the guards to Iso. We won 45 games with the Iso because the lack of Zone forced people to play 1 on 1 against Francis/Mobley and people just aren't gonna be able to stop those two 1 on 1 from the three point line. And unlike when you have a dominant center, where a double team forces the shot outside, since the guards start from the outside, a early double would give up a shot inside. We saw how much more difficult it became for Cat and Steve after they started allowing the Zone. We have great individual talents in Cat, Steve and Yao, and since the zone takes away the 1 on 1, the impact of those three diminished ad our role players are foced to step up for this team to win.
The zone helps the Rockets on defense. Other than Yao and Jackson we don't have a team of good man-to-man defensive players.
I'm still waiting on someone to tell me what High School Dirk N. , Peja S. and Boki Nachbar graduated from . . . or even IF THEY DID We like to scream how fundamental the Euro are [I still say they only fundamental on ONE END] but not willing to lessen the rules on our athletes NO WAY any high school coach could get as much time with his players as Dirk, Peja, and Boki's coaches had with them . . .plus they were drawing a check from what I have heard. Rocket River
watch Mobley play defense sometimes. . . or at least watch with only half of your mind already made up. rocket river
I disagree on this. IMO, whistling tickey tack fouls will never allow the offense to establish a rhythm. Rather, they should whistle Shaq's shoulder-slam more. Jeff mentioned 4 feet. Extending it half as much should still serve the purpose. I like this idea.
Zone or not, refs have to call those pushes. Currently, the games are more and more like wrestling. I understand the NBA want player to play physicle to make games exciting, but it has gone too far. Holdings and shovelings are rarely called. Even NFL has rules against illegal use of hands.
The idea is not to use the whistle to stop the game. The idea is to make defensive players back off and stop playing defense so hard. That will happen once they are in foul trouble. Of course, people can argue that they like to see in-your-face defense ... Ok, it's fine , but you can't have it both ways. Do we want less scoring or more scoring? Choose 1.
rockbox, DaDakota is right. The zone was put in to force players to learn team oriented passing, using picks, and screens (something they should have learned from the NCAA). Skills that our supposedly "super stars" have lost over the years. Just because you are a shooting guard, or small forward, or power-forward, doesn't mean that you should lose passing skills (or even set-plays designed for the pass/score). Too much emphasis has been put on the scoring player (iso), rather than the basketball player (multi-talented; Isiah, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem). Talent varies from player to player, so the "gifted" ones will still have the ability to "wow us." They just need to learn the other stuff as well. The reason that the zone was implemented is that players that only used (learned when young) the ISO -- for their main weapon -- are finding it difficult to succeed in this league. I'm glad. Because if they refuse. Their game will suffer. So McGrady can cry all he wants. The league is telling him to learn how to play team ball. It's not like he's going to forget "how to score." That will always be there! And he WILL continue to work on it, I can assure you! So, new player coming in will need to know how to score AND pass! At least the ones that want to make the most of their talent. Because it will be a necessity. So the zone forces a player to pass because the players coming in didn't know how, and weren't expected to change their ways anytime soon. So, we have the zone. You WILL PASS! Francis has changed. Murbury has changed. So, McGrady can too. P.S. The zone has more to do with "system or team passing" rather than actuall "passing skill."
RR, is doesn't matter where they learn the fundamentals, as much as that they DO! Also, most of the time when people talk about fundaments basketball, they are talking about the offensive end. Because, that's were USA ball is suffering (shooting, and team oriented scoring). So, we're not saying that Europeans don't need to improve on the defensive end. We're saying how much better their young players are learning the basics very well. And given time, they'll learn the defensive part too. Ten years ago, the idea that international players were a hot commodity would be crazy or that any pro-Team USA would have been beaten by Argentina or Spain. Ok, so you've pointed out an advantage that europe players have. Now what are we going to do about it? Give excuses?
PAY THE PLAYERS! lose NO PASS NO PLAY Lose a bunch of those rules about how much time a player and coach can have. Lose all that academic crap Screw all that . . . just make better players!!!!! My point is. . . SSSOOOO MANY of us want to handcuff our players on one hand . .then wanna praise players that don't have the restraints I think we need to look at the fact that the NBA is a legit job tract and perhaps we should treat it like a craft etc. . .. and have people are tracted that way If you want EURO type players. .. you need to get EURO type rules too. . . . ARE YOU WILLING TO DO THAT? Rocket River
A funny thing happened. Kids perception of the game was wrong. They saw all the flashy dunking and incredible scoring from the past greats: Mike, Larry, Magic, Isiah...but little did they know what it took to become that great. The scoring was the focus in these young kids. Because, well, quite frankly, it was "eye candy" and "spectacular." And the league took advantage of that because these young players, in all reality, were very good at dunking (great athletes). They were Spectacular. WWE style! But gets what? Fool's gold. The rest of their game was suffering, and it show on the court when you watched the games. Enter zone. rhadamanthus, don't you think that the offensive scoring EASE (improving the scoring aspect) on a team level is directly related to the "team play" concept? The iso's were way out of control with the young talents. If the league did nothing, the ISOs would be going on today as usual. P.S. Even though the entrance of the International player might have helped ease the "lack of shooting and passing."
There is absolutely no tangible evidence that this will work against the best athletes in the world. Zone defense does encourage ball movement and good shooting, but no one had guys like McGrady in mind when they thought about the zone. Part of what made guys like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson great (and no one complained about THEIR passing skills) was the fact that they were able to break down defenders and force over-committment by opposing defenses. Because they had such incredible court vision, they killed those defenders by finding the open man. The zone would have actually prevented many of those amazing defenses. No way Jordan does that famous switching hands drive down the lane in a zone. Magic isn't going to be hitting cutters back door against a 2-3. The problem is that the zone gives a clear advantage to great athletes on defense. Because of their length and quickness, defenses can extend and contract quickly. With a lack of shooters on the perimeter or even just a dominant low post game, it is nearly impossible to create an offensive scheme that can take advantage of a zone defense. No matter how skilled your passers are, they are still subject to the basic laws of the zone and they are still only as good as the shooters who get the pass. IMO, the thing that sets basketball apart from other sports is the sheer athletic ability of the players. It is the one major organized professional sport that requires supreme athletic skill at nearly every spot on the floor. Hoops began to interest a wide audience when it began to exploit those athletic abilities and let them loose. The more they try to reign them in, the more boring the game becomes and the less interested the public will be. Arguably, the best era for pro basketball was also the best era for the rise of the athlete in pro ball - from 1983 - 1993. Dr. J, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Olajuwon, Thomas and on down the line. No one argues that those weren't really the golden years for the NBA in terms of its rise in popularity. Zone defense was suggested back in the early 80's and EVERYONE rejected the idea saying it would be bad for the game. Today is no different.
Why is McGrady being talked about as somebody who is limited by the zone? Didn't he lead the league in scoring or come in 2nd last year with a career high 31 or 32 or something ridiculous like that?
RR, I agree. Calm down... The fact of the matter is that US basketball has to fix the problem or else the international player will get more and more jobs. Save a few that squeak by like LeBron and Mello. By the way, even though James is a H.S. player, he's still a student of the game. The whole game. So, it's not just all about the system. By the way, on your last sentence. About, "If you want EURO type players. .. you need to get EURO type rules too. . . . ARE YOU WILLING TO DO THAT?" Well, the league is willing to go get these EURO players. If the US players are not up to par. If we do nothing, change will still occur. There will just be more International players filling our rosters. No matter what happens, the legue will improve. Even if the NCAA and NBA doesn't get it crap together. You can already see it. By the way, I love what you said about bball player being a "craft." True.
Jeff, I agree. The zone is more of an experiment out of necessity. Like RR said, it's has to come from the early stages of a players development, into college and on to the NBA. It has to be a cultural change (as well as technical) in how the game is learned. The emergence of Rucker Park play has influenced the young kids what it means to play the complete game. That too does have an effect. True, the zone may not get it's total effect intended. But it does improve the way player approach the game. That's why I said that the zone affects team passing rather than player passing *skill*. Bird was just gifted. He developed that skill very young. Maybe he just had natural court vision that far exceeded other players. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about our top core elite players that seem to be lacking the most fundamental level of passing and team oriented ball. This is not to say that they can't go ISO and show their stuff. That's still a God given talent. It's just that the other stuff has to be developed/learned too! Don't you think that this has an effect on how the player react to other players coming in the league. Young H.S. players ask McGrady and others about the NBA. I've heard it before from "Skip to my Lu." He's trying to get into the players heads, "Don't come to the NBA trying all that flashy stuff. It wont work! It will get you benched!"
Just to clariy, "The emergence of Rucker Park play" has given the wrong impression to young player of what it means to be a basketball player in the NBA. Example. Dr. J and Isiah could play at Rucker and put on a SHOW!!! But they could also play the NBA and play the team game. They could do both types of play. Not just one.
Does anyone really give a damn about what McGrady has to say??? When he was crying about this, I think he was like 3rd in scoring with something like 25ppg. Third in the league in scoring at 25 per is not bad by any stretch of the imagination. Especially when Rashard Lewis was leading this category with an average of 37 ppg through two games. That won't hold up. He needs to stop whining. My point is that he is still in the top 2 or 3 in points per. Who cares??? If he thinks it affects his game, he needs to go talk to Yao or Shaq.
