Does the Battier/Gay trade still bother/frustrate/infuriate you to this day?

elmer's glue anyone

 

Not really, since we've got scola by trading away V-Span You can't expect the rockets management to steal good players everyday.

On the other hand, if we look at it another way, we traded V Span + Rudy Gay for Battier + Scola, how does it sound now?

 

Well basically here is how it would go. Without Battier, and Gay here, we would probably not even be a top 15 defensive team. I mean if we were giving up 90 pts a game as a team, Shane was personally responsible for holding opposing sg's and sf's like 8-10 pts below their average. So we would be nothing defensively without him. That being said , this slow it down defensive player oriented team hasn't gotten anywhere. Looking at the Lakers, Jazz, Hornets, we just need talented players. Looking at Rudy Gay, I dont think he would be that much of help. He is not a great player off the dribble, and that is exactly what this team needs. The trade for Hedo if it is for real, NEEDS to happen.

 

Once again one of the biggest flaws in the Battier defense. The Rox defense was very good without him.


Year Lg Pts PPG FGM FGA FGP FTM FTA FTP 3PM 3PA 3PP REB RPG AST APG STL BLK TO PF
2007-08 NBA 7547 92.0 2852 6594 43.250 1410 1912 73.750 433 1186 .370 3335 32.4 1548 18.9 622 379 1061 1615
2006-07 NBA 7555 92.1 2793 6503 .429 1497 2000 .749 472 1346 .351 3348 40.8 1588 19.4 571 353 1163 1631
2005-06 NBA 7517 91.7 2708 6310 .429 1560 2135 .731 541 1465 .369 3351 40.9 1647 20.1 582 373 1094 1716
2004-05 NBA 7465 91.0 2720 6423 .423 1571 2116 .742 454 1343 .338 3336 40.7 1696 20.7 607 335 1091 1773

The first yr they got tracy, they turned into one of the best defensive teams..The fg against %,rebs,and pts per have actually went up since Battier's arrival though minimal. Not only that, people dont realize how good a player like Kobe can be when he doesn't have to play defense. No one guards Battier because he's no threat. He doesnt attack the basket nor can he shoot with a hand in his face. So whne teams play him, they close out out of control because they dont fear him going to the rack. When u can closeout out of control, u can get there out of balance and faster which forces the guy off the line. The same can be said for luther head. When teams know u can put the ball on the floor and get to the cup, they close out under control and slower. Now a good offensive player can triple threat the guy and make a play. Shane doesnt give u that. Like i said, i'm not a stat guy, but some things needs to be said. The rox have been a good defensive teams since Van gundy was the coach with guys like sura and wesley in the backcourt. Even during the injury riddled season, they could defend, but could couldnt score without mcgrady.

 

it doesn't surprise me that a guy who is admittedly not a stats guy brings up alot of great points.

I'd like to point out that the year before Battier came here Tmac played on the better scorers alot and he didn't do terrible. Battier's defense might be really good but when you put him on a team that is already good on D he becomes less important. I think if Battier was traded Tmac would play more intensely on D and the loss of Battier would be minimal. Lock down perimeter defenders are more of a luxury than a necessity. If we had Rudy Gay we would have advanced by now.

 

The Rocket became a very good defensive team a year earlier, coinciding with the arrival with JVG. Looking at raw defensive stats can be deceptive, though, because of changing league-wide trends. A better way to judge defense year to year, in my opinion, is relative to the league average. For instance:

Code:

year    DRTG    LgEff     ratio   stdDRTG
2004    99.0    102.9     0.962    -1.03
2005   101.7    106.1     0.959    -1.38
2006   103.3    106.2     0.973    -0.85
2007   100.7    106.5     0.945    -1.80
2008   101.6    107.5     0.945    -1.85

The last column shows a standardized defensive rating (the lower, the better) which takes into account the distribution of defenses league-wide. I think this gives a more accurate picture of the team's defensive strength, and it indicates that there has been a marked improvement since Shane Battier (and, incidentally, a full-time Chuck Hayes) joined the team. And is it a coincidence that Memphis went from being one of the very best to the very worst defensive team once Battier left? Just a fluke, I suppose?

 

it was a good trade, and it is still a good one...

 

No, it's not a fluke, but it's also completely false that Battier was the only factor holding that team together defensively. There were a lot more factors involved than just Battier. The core of the team changed from Bonzi, Stromile, Jason Williams, and James Posey to stoudamirre (washed up), bobby jackson, hakim warrick and eddie jones (washed up). That's a big change in personnel not named Battier.

But these are probably the bigger factors:

1. The Grizzlies didn't have Gasol for the first 22 games and he barely played in the next 8 games.

2. At this point, the Grizz fired Mike Fratello, who is notorious for preaching defense over everything else (a lot like JVG), and equally notorious for slowing the game down to a stand still as much as possible, limiting possessions and creating low scoring unattractive basketball. When was gone, they brought in Tony Barone who isn't known for anything.

They went from having a disciplinarian defensive coach to a nobody. They knew they were going nowhere and were probably tanking to get a better pick and playing their young guys.

But, if you still want to chalk it all up to Shane Battier being a world stopper, go right ahead.

 

Go back and compare the rosters for the 05/06 season and 06/07 season, and explain to me, from a personnel perspective, how they might have gone from being a very good defensive team that won 49 games to the worst defensive team in the league that won 22 games. In particular, please note that on the 05/06 roster that won 49 games and was second in defensive rating none of the players you mentioned -- Bonzi, Stromile, J-Will, or Posey -- were on the team. The notable playeres who left the team after that season were Bobby Jackson, Lorenzen Wright, and Shane Battier. Eddie Jones was was also traded midseason.

Firstly, before you can determine the primary factors involved in the Grizzlies downturn, you need to separate what happened to their offense and defense. They went from being 16th and 2nd in offense and defensive respectively to being 13th and 30th in offense/defense after Battier left. In other words, the downturn can be almost exclusively blamed on their drop in defense. It stands to reason, then, that it is the loss of good, smart, capable defensive players and coaching that hurt them.

In the first 30 games of the 06/07 season with Mike Fratello, the Grizzlies had an above averaged 109.0 offensive rating and a spectacularly terrible 115.5 defensive rating. Are you suggesting here that the absence of Pau Gasol (not exactly known as a great defender) is the reason they slumped so much on the defensive end to start the season?

I never did that. A number of factors may have contributed. But the personnel, based on sheer talent and athleticism, hardly changed for the worse. Their two best players, Pau Gasol and Mike Miller, both played most of the season at full strength and put up their usual numbers. And they exchanged Shane Battier for Rudy Gay. All that ... and somehow they became a significantly worse team due to a ridiculous dropoff in defense. These are the facts. I think it's a bit delusional to think that losing a leader and their best team defender had little to do with that.

 

Okay. This was the point of my original response to you. You're basically just re-iterating my post that said their drop in defense can be attributed to more factors than just losing Battier.....You originally attributed it solely to Battier. I added that they lost other players, like Posey, and had a coaching change, which also played a large part in their drop.

No, Gasol is not a good defender. But that team dug itself a hole in the first 30 games, fired their defensive minded coach, and threw in the towel defensively.

You pretty much did. You need to go back and re-read your original post and my response. You asked if losing Battier and the drop in defense were just a coincidence. I said it was not a coincidence but that there were other factors involved, factors that you neglected to account for.

 

Duvursa- I've never said shane wasn't a good defender, but when u lose ur best offensive player who u run ur offense thru also was the best rebounder and shot blocker will hurt.Then u fire the defensive minded coach and replace him with barone jr who could coach defense in college led to the collapse. To me the 3 most important defensive stats are opp fg%, ppg, and defensive rebounding. If ur not top 5-10 in those 3, ur not a good defense.

 

How does Adelman rank in those? Can you post it for us? Thanks!

 

And you neglected to point out (or recognize even here) that Posey was not on the Grizzlies in 05/06 when they were at their peak as a defensive ball club. If you bother to compare the rosters between the 05/06 and 06/07 season, you'll get a better idea of how the exchange of Battier for Gay might have contributed to their decline.

I never attributed the dropoff to solely Battier. I merely stated facts and questioned whether it made sense that it could be just coincidence that his departure coincided with the defensive dropoff. I think not, and that does not imply that Battier is the only factor ... just an important one.

Ok .. so why did they perform so poorly on the defensive end in the first 30 games, if not for the absence of Gasol? Fratello was still the coach after all. What happened?

I don't see how my original post implied that there were no other factors. Anyways, I hope we're clear now.

 

In the first 30 games of that season, the Grizzlies were a horrible defensive team. It was a staggering turnaround from the prior year, when they were one of the top defensive teams in the league. They weren't losing all those games because they couldn't score. So, we need to examine what changed personnel-wise to start that season which caused them to struggle so much on the defensive end. I would not attribute that to Gasol, personally ... he is below average as a defensive center despite having length and being a decent shot blocker. I think losing Gasol in addition to losing the starting center from the previous season (Lorenzen Wright) probably hurt them. The influx of young players in exchange for veterans who know how to play defense (like Battier, like Jackson) also hurt their team defense.

So, yes, to be fair losing Battier was just one of a number of possible factors. After the coaching change, it was obvious that the team pretty much lost all interest on the defensive side. But after Gasol returned, if you look at the makeup of their roster they were every bit as talented as in the prior season. Probably more so. And yet they were far, far worse as a team. I think that's interesting. Even into this season, when Rudy Gay became a more explosive offensive player, the team still stunk. Did the quality of coaching really degrade that much? Fratello is a good coach, but I don't think he's the difference between a 22-win team and a 49-win team; it's still a player's league. And if we maintain that Rudy Gay is a far better player than Shane Battier, the rest of the team must have gotten really, really bad to offset that. I just don't see it.

 

So it will have taken them 5 years in the lottery to rebuild?

Are you supporting what I said or against me

To be fair, i did say it was rare for teams to rebuild solely through the draft! We'll see if Portland makes the playoffs next season and then talk about them as an example of rebuilding through the draft...

 

Taking Gay with the 8th pick would not have been an example of rebuilding through the draft.He would have been an addition to Yao and Tracy McGrady.

 

Yes and anyone who says otherwise is usually exaggerating every negative that arose from the trade.

Has anyone mentioned that we would have Swift AND Bobby expiring now?

Gay would be excellent in Adelman's system after some defensive coaching from JVG. With JVG coaching him in his rookie season, he has all the tools to be a top notch defender AND scorer.