Does Francis have greater value to the team, or trade value?

Maybe we should look at how Phoenix traded Kidd for Marbury.

This is probably the kind of trade we are talking about.

Except that Francis has more upside as he is younger.
Phoenix ended up the loser on this one.

but what was determining in this evaluation is how this trade affected the chemistry for both teams. The impact on it was good for both, just that in New Jersey it was even better!

So, do you compare Francis to MArbury or to Kidd?

Playing style wise he is more like a Marbury type of player.

But Houston does not have the talent depth New Jersey had.

 

What does that mean. You are dumb.

 

Usually when a marquis player / elite player is traded, you do not get equal or greater value. Two exceptions I can think of- when LA traded Eddie Jones and Elden Campbell for Glen Rice, J. R. Reid, and a third player- I think Charlotte came out better. The Barkley trade netted Phoenix more value than Barkley. I think the Rockets could get better value trading Steve Francis for another position player- for sake of argument a Shaun Marion or Rashard Lewis. Trading Francis for Lamar Odom and Darius Miles would bring good value to Rockets. These high powered trades are very risky. We have tremendous resources tied up in Francis.

I would really hate to lose him unless we could get an equal marquis player.

 

First off, JAG posted a relevant and thought-provoking question; it sure beats the Cuttino/Cato/Langhi/KT/whoever-else-is-not-Francis sucks/is-a-cancer/should-be-traded-for-a-half-eaten-bag-of-cheetos-and-used-toilet-paper/should-be-traded-for-an-all-star-center/PF/SF threads.

Anyway, I think in spite of his "negative reputation" (which I believe to be incredibly overplayed and exagerrated), he has considerable trade value based not only his current play, but also his potential to "mature". With that said, this discussion really comes down to whether you feel that, in the long run, he will gain the necessary basketball smarts (i.e. tone down the showboating, trust his teammates, etc.) to lead this team to a championship. Personally, I believe he has the "potential" to be great and if Griffin becomes as good as we think he will be, then a championship may be a realistic possibility.

With that said, there are certain players that we would be foolish to pass up IF they were offered for Francis (e.g. Duncan, Shaq, and possibly MacGrady, Kidd (the only PG I would even consider), Webber (I know a couple of these presume that the GM of the other team develops a crack habit which impairs his judgement). Looking at the Championship teams of the last decade, none of them had exactly stellar PGs. The last Championship teams that did have a great PG were the Lakers (a Magic was a freak of nature), and the Pistons (and arguably, basketball has evolved (some would argue devolved) into a completely different game since then).

Bottom line: I think Francis' trade value would be considerable, but I would not actively shop him until he actually makes it clear that he is not returning to the Rockets.

Mobley on the hand . . .

 

First off, let me say that I would have to consider Francis as one of the untouchables on this team. He's like the cotter pin that holds everything together. Without him, the wheels start to fall off, as in 1-18 without him in the lineup.

The migraines are a result of something that has changed in his lifestyle. I suspect that it has to do with the pain killers he's been taking as a result of his injured feet. I don't see that as being a concern to another team, because it's just started & can be corrected once they determine what's causing it. I know that MSG (natural & artificial flavors added) causes me to have severe headaches. I just bought a protien supplement that did just that & when I quit taking it, the headaches stopped.

With the pending free agency, we'll be able to pay him more than any other team. With the coaches, management, & players that we currently have, I believe that our future is bright & the recent injury & headaches have only proven to Francis that this team needs him. One of the reasons that he forced the Vancouver trade was so that he could play the PG position. That tells me he wants to be in charge of the team on the floor & have a major influence on it. He definitely has that here. I don't see this as being a concern.

The mental lapses can be attributed to growing pains, but I can definitely see his growth & maturity this year over last year.

However, it is an intriguing question. What is Francis's trade value?

Now, as to what I feel we could get for him. A LOT! Centers & PG's are at a premium in the NBA & really great ones are very rare. Francis is a really great one.

One thing that no one has mentioned yet, is the fact that we could also piggyback some dead weight or cumbersome contracts along with Francis in any trade. Cato has shown remarkable improvement this year & even more so lately with the upcoming trade deadline, but my concern is that once the deadline passes, he'll revert back to being an underachiever again. As for the argument that some will present about Griffin & Cato playing well together, maybe there is some validity to that. However, I feel that Griffin's athleticisim is just covering up Cato's weaknesses. We could also move Rice/Walt/Taylor's contracts in some combination. Not that I'm calling any of these three dead weight, but they do have large contracts.

Orlando is the team with the most draft picks available (I believe they have 7 #1 picks in the next 3-4 years?) & have some really good young talent like Miller/Garrity/Hunter. Armstrong would be an adequate PG to fill in, until whomever we drafted was ready to take over.

Indiana would kill to get Francis. They've got young players like Bender/Harrington/Best/Croshere/Tinsley. Yes, I do believe that they'd trade Tinsley for Francis. I also believe that O'Neal would be untouchable, but who knows?

Toronto might give up some combination of MoPete/Keon Clark/Jerome Williams.

Chicago might give up some combination of Curry/Artest/Fizer/Miller/Crawford/Hassell.

Denver might give up some combination of LaFrentz/McDyess/Posey/Van Exel.

Memphis might give up some combination of Swift/Dickerson/Battier/Williams. I doubt that they'd give up Gasol.

The Clippers might give up some combination of Odom/McInnis/Miles/Maggette/Kandi/Richardson. On second thought, Sterling is too cheap.

If Francis were traded, I believe it would be an indication that we were moving away from the current offensive system & back to a low post dump it in/pass it out game, like when Dream was here.

The bottom line is, that I believe they would look to get draft picks & promising young talent & would have several teams competing against each other. So, who knows just how high the bidding would go?

 

First off, JAG, this was an interesting thought. Personally, I don't think you trade someone if you think they are a superstar. The rule is almost always: he who gets the best player wins.

Second, I'd like to take this post to say something I think is important:

<b>POSTING HERE IS BECOMING EXTREMELY DIFFICULT</b>

JAG did not say anything wierd or extreme. He simply posed a question. Three of the first four responses attempted to cut him down FOR THINGS HE DIDN'T EVEN SAY.

I've been around this BBS as long as anyone here. I've known Clutch since he started this site in <i>1996</i>! There has never been a more difficult time that I can remember to post on this BBS and we have been criticized in the past for being overly harsh.

What bothers me most is that the board seems to be proliferated with:

1. Constantly repititious posts just re-phrased and re-worded by the same people.
2. Posters who base their arguments on no reason or thought whatsoever.
3. Extremely harsh and biting shots taken at people for the most trivial reasons.
4. A lack of real substantive conversation. You can't make it through a thought without someone taking your head off.

I am not the only one noticing the problem. I've gotten emails from people who rarely post anymore because it is too difficult to sift through all the crap and then, when and if they do post, they are berated by someone who doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

This BBS, which has been known to scoop even the saviest of media outlets simply because of our sheer numbers, is rapidly de-evolving into a playground for people wasting time and using an online forum to make themselves look better than they actually are.

Maybe the Rockets lack of winning has brought out the worst in many of us and maybe some of the used-to-be regulars have gotten caught up in other things. Whatever the case, this board should NEVER be mistaken for one on ESPN.com or some other generic place, but there are days when I come in here and wonder.

Ultimately, this will have to change or it will continue to get worse and worse. It is already being discussed so bear that in mind as you continue to post.

 

I'll give you another reason why Houston would not trade Steve. Because he's marketable. He's a very popular player because he is really exciting to watch and not a menance to society off the court.

But the one factor that nobody has discussed is the attention Steve draws to the organization.

Hakeem was great but since he wasn't a native english speaker, he never was really a favorite outside of Houston. Respect , yes. Favorite, no. Steve has all the skills to be a model NBA citizen both on and off the court.

Another point. Obviously this team is built around Steve so whatever we got in return has to be of that caliber. That is too difficult to trade for most of the time and why his value to this team is very high. Removing him would destroy this team...even if it was for a Kobe Bryant. It would take at least 2 seasons to be competative. <Without injuries, this team IS competative>

 

I couldn't agree more Jeff. How about we start taking them out back & shooting them. I'll buy the ammo.

The sad part is, if you put them on your ignore list, you'll probably miss an incitefull post from someone that has something legitimate to say.

 

Troy Baros

You are an idiot.

Have a nice day.

 

Jeff, there's a few things I'd like to add about that...

First of all, when I first came to this board, I saw it as extremely difficult for new posters like myself to enter conversations. While you, one of the moderators will always receive a noteworthy perusal of your post and a response... whether to liken your favor or what not, new guys just get thrown down to the ground! A few series of respectable posts of course and remedy that (respect must be earned of course) but at the same time it's discouraging and posters have bad "aji" ... bad taste left in their mouths for posting and being neglected/scoffed at.

The other big thing, which ties in - everyone likes to be heard and people like to be right. There has been a lot of ego lately and simply competitive posts which aim at who is the more credible poster instead of who is having a lighthearted discussion that everyone can enjoy. Posts focus back to the poster's respectability lately than the actual content too many times.

This may be inevitable and necessary even at times with a BBS longstanding as Clutchcity - where discussion and friends are carried on through several years and reputation is carried on.

Anyhow, the need for attention seems to lead to snide and intolerant remarks just eagerly waiting to pounce and de-fame the next poster. The ironic thing is the people who get attention and are respected in the long run are usually the tolerant and post only relevant things.

You'd think the anonymity and "life away from life" here on the net would encourage people to start all over again and make others and themselves a little happier, a little more comfortable
in a community.

People need to stop spending 5 min of their day to try and make themselves look better at the expense of others.

In the words of junglerules :

Don't piss in someone's cheerios just so you feel better.



You're only embarrassing yourself.

 

crossover: TOTALLY agree with your assertions.

If there is one thing I absolutely HATE, it is reaming the new guy just because he is new. There are guys who have been lurking on this BBS for YEARS and when they decide to post they are treated like outsider freaks.

It is one thing to be dubious of a new poster saying, "A source told me Cato would be dealt to the Lakers for Shaq." It is entirely another to hammer the crap out of someone just for expressing their opinion.

Frankly, I am, at times, embarrassed by the way some posters act at times especially when I hear from people, "What's up with (insert poster name here)?" from someone I respect.

Thing is, if we WANT more people to post good comments here and to encourage those who really do have inside information to post their thoughts here (which, I would hope we ALL do), we aren't going to make that happen if we keep treating people like they couldn't find a clue the size of Wisconsin with a magnifying glass.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but I don't see Duncan re-signing with the Spurs. He made his current contract coincide with Robinson's for a reason. Now since Steve makes so much less than Duncan, this is a perfect opportunity to move a big contract. Especially if we could get him to sign an extension. I don't know if this would be kosher under the CBA, but the Spurs would love to have a superstar locked up long term. Francis, Cato, and Taylor for Duncan, Ferry, and Daniels works salary-wise. Daniels is not an ideal point guard, but he can play that position. The spurs get three players on long term deals, so they don't have to worry about convincing people to stay.

5 - Duncan, Collier
4 - Griffin, Thomas
3 - Rice, Ferry, Morris, Langhi, (draft?)
2 - Mobley, Torres
1 - Daniels, Norris

A frontcout with Duncan and Griffin is like a young twin towers. That team would be championship contenders every year. Then if we could get a good 3 in the draft (Dunleavy?) we would be set for a long time. After that, we could just look for point guard prospects.