The part about banging on the trashcan was not illegal. The illegal part is using technology to decide the signs which is what all teams did.
The use of the monitor, which was installed near the dugout and allowed the players to decode the signs and then bang out the info in real time, was absolutely illegal. You can't have the bangs without the monitor
That's like saying A-Rod's steroids were more egregious because they were designer/synthetic and harder to detect vs. the horse injections that Canseco, McGwire and Sosa put in their bodies... Its all part of the same system... and that's why I said it would be interesting to know the effectiveness when no runners were on base, as that seems to be the only major difference between all these "systems". All teams were relaying signs to the batter, either via runners on base with apple watches, or via massage guns on the bench, or whistling (which the Astros were accused of for their road games, while NY was doing the same thing). I'd think the apple watches would be perceived as the most egregious as its the most subtle of all signaling mechanisms... but sure, trash cans are egregious AF as well. The longer this plays out, more schemes will be revealed... whether inadvertently or intentionally due to media members knowing that this stuff sells. In some ways the Astros continuing to win has enabled more information to be readily released, as now it can be painted as a systemic problem that really didn't overly impact the good teams from still being good anyways.
I agree that other teams were likely relaying signals to the batter in real time, but we only have actual recorded evidence for the Astros. I guarantee the 2018 Red Sox were doing something at least as egregious as the 2017 Astros, but we have no evidence of their methods. ETA: I'm talking specifically here about the dugout to batter system, not the other video room system
I think his point was that lots of teams were using "technology" to decode the signs. You say the big differentiator for the Astros was the trash can banging to relay to the current batters. That part, at least per the league rules at the time, was not illegal. So from strictly a rule breaking standpoint, the Astros weren't doing anthing notably different from other teams as was so widely reported.
Pre-2017, they were reprimanded for using apple watches to relay/signal. There is evidence of this. They got a wrist slap. Its glossed over because of the wrist slap and the technicality that MLB hadn't specifically stated you couldn't use the video cameras for this purpose. The system they used in 2018 was intricate, but after the media/MLB made a huge example of the Astros, and the players were already granted immunity, the Red Sox smartly decided not to say anything.... and dared the media to call them out on it (they didn't). You're literally exemplifying the impact of the media and MLB trying to paint this as a single team issue (which again, to re-iterate, I feel is the bigger story).
If all of you want to bury your heads in the sand and say it's all the same, that's your choice. There were two different systems. One was to get info to a runner at 2nd base, to then relay to the hitter, which every team was doing. And every team is aware of. Another was to get info directly to the batter, even when no one was on 2nd base, using a monitor and then audible signals. There is a difference, and most people (other than Astros fans i guess) understand this, whether any of you want to admit it or not. Lots of evidence that teams were doing the former. No evidence that the Yankees or Dodgers or Red Sox were doing the latter. Apple watches and dugout phones do not get the info directly to the batter.
You don't know that. The Apple Watch cheating system pre-dated 2017 and was technically not deemed "illegal" until MLB decreed it so. They were relaying signs to the batter via the video room. Whether it went through the video room to the 2B then to the batter, or to the batter directly, not a huge difference.... the source is still the video room. Nobody is sticking their head in the sand... this was a universal problem of which the Astros were a part of and apparently were very late to the scene. Knowing what's out there and been revealed about the other teams (Girardi admitting their real-time system by mistake), and lets just say the Astros weren't trying to even the playing field and ended up losing, I'd be slightly perturbed/frustrated. All of the main teams implicated in this era (minus the Yankees) also have WS titles to fall back on, so while they may show some slight public remorse, there's a good chance every one of them would have done it again if the same scenarios played out. I'd say singling out the Astros is the proverbial "sticking your head in the sand" stance at this point.
Exactly. We don't know whether other teams had a batter relay system that didn't rely on a base runner at 2nd. I'd bet a lot of money the 2018 Red Sox had a direct relay system too, and probably other teams over the years. But we only know about the Astros and their monitor and bangs, and anyone can go listen to it for themselves.
Wait... the apple watch system and dugout phone were absolutely illegal. Because any use of electronics was illegal. And both the Yankees and Red Sox were punished
Here's a direct Manfred quote in reference to the Yankees and Red Sox penalties in 2017: "We actually do not have a rule against sign-stealing," MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred told reporters last week. "It has been a part of the game for a very, very long time. To the extent that there was a violation of the rule here, it was a violation by one or the other [team] that involved the use of electronic equipment. It's the electronic equipment that creates the violation."
I mean, you can say that, sure, but why send the info to the apple watch if you aren't further intending to send it to the batter in some way. They might not have been banging cans it might have been the 3rd base coach clapping or where the first base coach stands or something like that.
They were reprimanded and told to stop with an undisclosed fine... but use of the video room to decode signs wasn't explicitly deemed illegal till after this incident came about. Verducci even wrote a whole spring training puff piece about the "Dodgers war room" (video room) built specifically to decode signs. When the Astros 'codebreaker' initiative was exposed, this was looked at as evil Jeff Luhnow taking things way too far (when really they were just trying to catch up to what the main competition already had). It was all wrong... but the Astros were far from the original sinners. But the way they were portrayed as the "sole team that violated the sanctity of the game for all time" was wrong and THAT is the point.
Correct. The illegal part of all of it was the using the video in that way in real time to decide signals. There is no rule about banging trash cans. The rule that was being broken was decoding the signs real time using technology which is what all teams did.
The Dodgers still have no REAL championships to speak of with all this dominance over the past 10 years or so. That's hilarious.
