Do you think the Rockets would have won both of them championships if MJ never left?

read up on Sampson knee injury for the Celtics..

Oh, because people around the US (forget the world) never saw the 80s Dream play, how did they know if he was the best Center? you get my point?

he was the best center back then too. cause he was part of some teams that didn't make it far doesn't make him a lower tier center.

Michael Jordan was part of some bad teams, did that make him not the best 2 guard in the league?

People heard of MJ because of his dunks/shoes/scoring. rightfully so, but no one was talking about Dream when he's dropping quadruple doubles. yes quadruple double.

how about this? people thought Robinson and Ewing were better than the Dream. That was the perception.

 

Again I ask... Why are people making excuses for Jordan in '95.

I don't care if he was out of shape. That's nobody's fault but Jordan's. It doesn't get him a free pass, and everyone else has to pretend like he didn't come back.

That's BS. The guy came back, dropped 55 points on the Knicks, shot higher percentage, and more ppg than the next two year playoff runs.

But it's fine if you want to say he wasn't himself, and wasn't in shape. That still doesn't mean we have to pretend like he didn't come back. He doesn't get a pass just because he's supposedly the GOAT.

We need to look at what did happen, and the best team won, and Jordan's team didn't make it out of the east.

Nobody pretends like the '87 championships didn't count because SAmpson got hurt, and the Rockets were blown up because of drug problems.

 

I've answered this a number of times already. So I'll quote myself from earlier in this very thread... but I'll also add that his résumé does not make it such that it warrants "he was the GOAT, no need for any argument" status. Jabbar's in there. Magic's in the argument. So is Wilt. Russell's in there. It's not as clean-cut as people like you make it sound. That's just one reason why he's overrated.

 

you're right but dont be too hard on them. people can barely remember before there was the internet to stream games. talk about a time when parts of the country didn't even have access to ESPN??? and the ONLY place to see out-of-market games was the rare network broadcast??? you might as well be talking about the 1912 Olympics a million years ago

there's so much media these days it doesn't matter where you play but there was a time where BIG MARKET/SMALL MARKET used to matter. growing up all your life in Houston or any city it's hard to conceive of people being ignorant of your team but I guarantee that there are casual NBA fans out there who dont even know Houston HAS WON NBA championships in the past 25 years. those of you who live outside houston, go ahead and ask a casual acquaintance... some dude who doesn't know sports or maybe a chick to name teams that have won championships... many of them wont be able to name houston. it's not a fluke, pre-yao houston got very little press. a lot of people didn't even know who francis was either... compared to someone like reggie who either played for a big market team or AGAINST a big market team

 

Would the Bulls have ever won a title if:

- Key members of the 80's Celtics didn't get old or hurt (Bird's back, McHale balling on an injured foot)
- Len Bias didn't die
- Worthy & Scott didn't get hurt in 91
- The Sonics kept Scottie Pippen

Need I go on.......

There are key injuries and players missing in each NBA season. No one ever makes excuses for those situations. No one ever says the Lakers title in 87 or 88 (forget which year) doesn't count because Isiah messed up his ankle in game 6. No one ever says the Lakers title from 99/00 doesn't count because Duncan missed the playoffs. No one ever says any title from 1987-90 doesn't count because the Rockets team suffered to injuries and dope suspensions? Etc... Yet folks always make these BS excuses for MJ.

He came back. He played. He put up better numbers in those playoffs than he did for the following 3-peat. The Bulls lost because they had no PF, and they fixed that the following season. The team still won 50+ games without him. He has never won without Scottie. I could go on and on and on. Get off his Johnson.........

 

This is the post of year.
All you haters beg for mercy now!

 

This is Pippen, Jordan, Grant, Paxon and Cartright.. You know the 3 time future champs

vs

Don Chaney (Fired by the Rockets) and Sleepy Floyd (pre-Maxwell)

139 POINTS DROPPED ON THEM!


Paper: HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Date: FRI 02/02/1990
Section: Sports
Page: 1
Edition: 2 STAR

Rockets crush Bulls 139-112/Chicago's newfound unity fades into thin Air Jordan

By EDDIE SEFKO
Staff

It's amazing how good the Rockets can look when they play five-on-five.

And going five-on-one makes them look downright invincible.

They ganged up on Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls on Thursday night, pounding the Bulls 139-112 at The Summit. It was one of the most complete games the Rockets have played all season.

Otis Thorpe led the Rockets with 30 points and 13 rebounds. Akeem Olajuwon added 23 points.

But help came from all over, as each of the five Rockets starters scored at least 16 points.

Just a night earlier, the Rockets had been a two-man team, as Olajuwon and Thorpe tried to do it all against Dallas. The Rockets failed miserably in losing a fourth-quarter lead and the game.

It was a totally different story against Chicago.

The Rockets breezed by the Bulls like they were nothing but Air.

And, on this night, Chicago "was" nothing but Air.

The Air Jordan show was magnificent, as Chicago's superstar scored 25 points in the first half and settled for 35 as he sat out most of the fourth quarter.

But the Bulls were a one-man team, which is uncharacteristic for this year's outfit. They have survived by helping Jordan more than in the past.

The Rockets are 21-23 in what is turning out to be an eternal pursuit of the .500 mark.

They were ahead the entire game, widening a 20-point, first-quarter lead to 30, then 35 as the fourth quarter turned into a showcase for the Rockets' bench.

Nobody could figure out which impostors had slipped into the Rockets' uniforms during the first half.

Surely this was not the same group that missed nine of its last 10 shots against Dallas on Wednesday night.

Perhaps there was a method to the madness that took place in Dallas. The Rockets had blown a fourth-quarter lead by playing like church leaguers down the stretch. No doubt a serious case of overconfidence set in when they saw how timidly the Rockets played in crunch time against the Mavs.

It might rate as one of the great snooker jobs of all time.

The Rockets started the game in unerring fashion, hitting their first seven shots. And they didn't let up much during the entire first half.

Firing in 68 percent of their field-goal attempts, the Rockets scorched a porous Chicago defense. The Rockets had their highest-scoring half of the season and took a 77-55 lead into halftime.

For the second night in a row, Thorpe and Olajuwon roamed free and easy in the paint. Thorpe hit nine of 11 shots in the first half and Olajuwon canned seven of 10.

When the Rockets bolted ahead 19-9 to start the game, everybody in the sellout crowd at The Summit figured the Bulls would make a strong run to get back in the game.

But the way Chicago played defense, the teams could have played until the next century and the Bulls never would have made a dent.

The Rockets had a slew of uncontested buckets and gradually built the lead to 41-21 by the end of the first quarter.

Coach Don Chaney had worried before the game that the newfound versatility of the Bulls would catch the Rockets off-guard. But everything the Bulls have stood for this year was nowhere to be found in this game.

They returned to the days when they were simply a one-man team with Jordan doing all the damage and everybody else in a Bulls'uniform staying out of the way.

Scottie Pippen, who will be making his first All-Star appearance next week in Miami, was 2-for-10 from the field in the first half and was little more than an afterthought in the Bulls' game plan.

Ditto for Horace Grant, John Paxson and Bill Cartwright.

Meanwhile, the Rockets kept tossing up shots and they kept easing through the net like raindrops.

The Rockets moved out to a 68-45 lead when Sleepy Floyd, who had 20 points, and Thorpe ignited a flurry of baskets.

After going up by 22 at halftime, the Rockets took measures to make sure there was no second-half letdown. Floyd dropped in a three-pointer and a nice layup to put the Rockets up 91-65.

From there it was a stroll to a 110-80 lead after three quarters.

It was an amazing exacta for the locals. Not only did they see Jordan's flyboy show, they also got to see a rare rout by the Rockets. And that the blowout came against a team with 28-15 record made it that much sweeter.

Jordan, as usual, was truly amazing. His acrobatic flights to the basket were as entertaining as ever.

But there was one obvious factor holding Jordan back. He is enlisted to participate in the three-point shootout during All-Star Saturday next week, and judging from his productivity, he should stick to dunking the ball.

Jordan's first shot of the night was a three-pointer. It missed. So did most of his other long-range bombs.

Nevertheless, he showed why he's the most marketable commodity in the NBA.

 

No doubt, we owned them in the regular season. Dream would have given the Chicago centers the same amount points Jordan would have given Vmax and Clyde. Personally, I think Vernon would have been a better defender than Clyde. Clyde appeared afraid of Jordan during the Portland series against Chicago.

Horry would have neutralized Grant. Scottie couldn't double off Mario's 3 point shooting.

 

This is an old debate that will result with no conclusion. I have come to the realization that Jordan believers won't change their mind, and the Rockets fans hate to hear the idea that their championships may have an asterisk attached.

Living outside of Houston (and even Texas), I have been in numerous debates over this issue. The sad fact is, there isn't many that give us credit for those two championships. Most people label us lucky that Jordan decided to call it quits for those seasons. My friends know that this debate sets me off in an angry rage, so they never bring it up around me again.

For those that care, here's my official stance on this...

There's three undisputed facts:
1) The Rockets won those two championships.
2) Jordan was playing in the '95 playoffs (our 2nd championship run).
3) The Rockets were 5-1 against the Bulls leading up to our 2 championship seasons.

Everything else, is speculation! Here's the usual speculative arguments and my response.

Jordan came back in the middle of the season in '95, he clearly wasn't 100%.

Look at these two stat lines
31.5 PPG 48.4 FG% 6.5 REB/G 4.5 APG 2.3 STL/G 14BLKs
30.7 PPG 45.9 FG% 4.9 REB/G 4.1 APG 1.8 STL/G 6 BLKs

The two look very similar, you can even argue line one is better. The first line is his playoff stats in '95, the second is his playoff stats in '96. If he was 100% in '96, his stats sure don't show it. The Bulls best rebounder in '95 was Scottie Pippen w/ only 8pg. The Bulls weren't that good in '95, and that's why they lost to the Magic... stop making excuses about Jordan not being 100%.

The regular season records don't count, Jordan took it to another level in the playoffs.

Don't we want players that play every game at their best and treat every game as if it was Game 7 of the finals? "Who cares if they were 1-5 against the Rockets. It's a different story in the playoffs and Jordan wouldn't have let his team lose." All that says is Jordan takes games "off" and doesn't always play at his highest level.

Houston matched up well against those Bulls teams. They had no answer for Hakeem, and Vernon Maxwell did enough to slow down Jordan. The 5-1 record is all the proof needed.

Jordan's will and determination to win would have won those two championships.

A single player can only do so much. His will and determination wasn't good enough against the Magic.

 

The Rockets championships included Robert Horry.

The Robert Horry Factor would have determined the outcome.
Whether he hits the game winner, gets a key rebound, or takes out the entire Phoenix front line for suspension. Horry has proved greater than Michael Jordan in winning championships, SEVEN.

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'93-'94
No Jordan. Rockets beat the Knicks in 7 games after being down 3-2. You could make the case the Bulls could have beaten this Rockets team. The Bulls w/Jordan probably would have gotten home court advantage in this series, and home court was KEY those last 2 Rocket wins.
John Starks 2-18 taking the last shot in Game 6 against the Rockets, or Michael Jordan?

'94-'95
Jordan back/Jordan halfway back? No matter, the Magic beat the Bulls in the playoffs soundly 4 games to 2. If the Bulls would have made it to the Finals, looking at it objectively, I'm finding it hard to believe opinion would be Jordan was rusty. Getting knocked out the 2nd round was actually his best EXCUSE for being rusty. The Bulls best interior player on the championship teams, Horace Grant, was where? On that Magic team that beat the Bulls. Who would the Bulls have sent against Hakeem, Dickey Simpkins?

The Rockets with Clyde would have stomped a big fat mudhole on that Bulls team. Like the Rockets usually did to the Bulls in the regular season '91, '92, '93, '94 AND '95.

 

What happens when Pippen leaves Horry open for the last shot of the game?
Oh wait, that happened already (Pippen -Blazers vs Horry-Lakers)

What about Horrace Grant?
Oh wait, that happened too (Orlando)

 

I believe that the Rockets would've won both championships as long as we didn't face Seattle in the Playoffs. They were more of a nightmare matchup for the Rockets than the Bulls were.

My reason for believing this is because, from 1991 to 1993, the Rockets won 5 out of 6 regular season games vs. the Bulls. I know it aint the playoffs, but Michael Jordan was quoted after a game vs. the Rockets in 1993 in which they lost, saying "We don't want to face the Rockets in the Finals. We have no answer for Hakeem Olajuwon." For Michael Jordan to basically fear any player or team is saying something.

With that being said, lets look at the matchups if the Rockets were to face the Bulls in the 1994 Finals with Jordan (this would be the harder of the 2 titles to win). The 1994 Bulls were almost identical to the 1993 squad, except without Jordan, plus Kukoc, and a year older. Add MJ, and their starting 5 would be

Cartwright at center, Horace Grant at power forward, Pippen at SF, Jordan at SG, and Armstrong at PG.

The starting 5 for the Rockets was
Hakeem at center, Thorpe at Power forward, Horry at SF, Mad Max at SG, and Kenny Smith at PG.

Hakeem dominates a very old Cartwright easily, Thorpe and Grant cancel each other out, Pippen has a speed advantage over Horry, Mad Max ALWAYS made Jordan work extremely hard for is points, and an athletic Kenny Smith would cancel out Armstrong.

The bench for the Bulls had a rookie Toni Kukoc, a very old John Paxson, Jo Jo English, Pete Myers, Will Purdue, Scott Williams, Stacy King, Bill Wennington, and maybe a few other minor role players.

The Rockets on the other hand had a rookie Sam Cassell, Mario Elie, Carl Herrerra, Matt Bullard, Scott Brooks, Chris Jent, Eric Riley, and a few other minor role players.

I would take the Rockets bench, because of youth, and versatility. Most of the Bulls bench did have some playoffs battles and won championships, but they were old except for Kukoc.

Another important point you have to look at is the Rockets matching up with Jordan vs. the Bulls matching up with Olajuwon. Sure, Jordan would probably average his 30 points per game, but look at who he would've had guarding him in a 7 game series: Mad Max and Mario Elie, 2 very solid, strong, and peskey defenders, especially Mad Max who would shadow Jordan all over the court. Elie, although not as quick, could play physical with Jordan in the post and make him work for his points. But if they both couldn't keep Jordan out of the lane, Hakeem would be waiting to block shots taken by Jordan in the paint, and Horry was a good shot blocker back then as well, so 2 shot blockers Jordan would have to shoot over, if he got the ball and got around Mad Max or Elie. Essentially, the Rockets would not have to double team Jordan very often, which takes away many of Armstrong's, Kukoc's, and Paxon's open 3 pointers. Plus Jordan would have to spend energy chasing Mad Max all over the court, which would hurt his offense a little bit.

But how would the Bulls guard Hakeem? With an old Bill Cartwright? Slow immobile centers in Purdue and Wennington? Horace Grant (who Hakeem destroyed in 95)? They have NO answer, except for double or triple teaming Olajuwon, which leaves wide open 3's for Kenny Smith, Mad Max, Horry, Elie, Cassell, Bullard, and Chris Jent or a Otis Thorpe or Carl Herrerra for dunks underneath. Hakeem would be too dominant inside on both sides of the floor.

In 1994, the Rockets would win in 6 or 7 games, I'll give Jordan enough credit to be able to win atleast 2 games in a series.

In 1995, without a true power forward, the Bulls had no kind of rebounding. The Rockets had to play Chucky Brown and Horry at power forward, but Hakeem would still get his 10 rpg and Drexler would avg about 7 rpg, which is great for a guard. If that team couldn't beat the Magic, theres no way they could've beat the Rockets with the way Hakeem was playing in the 95 Playoffs (33 ppg, 10 rpg, 3 bpg, 2 spg, 4 apg), he did it all against scrub centers of Utah and Pheonix and superstars like David Robinson and Shaq. NOBODY was going to stop Hakeem in the 95 Playoffs. Plus on top of that, the Rockets had a title hungry Drexler, who would cancel out Pippen for the most part, and would make either Jordan or Pippen spend energy guarding him.

Some people will argue that Jordan was not the same player in the 95 Playoffs as he was in 93, and that is true, but I would take Jordan in that post season over everybody but Hakeem at the time. Here are his stats,
31.5 ppg, 48% fg, 81% ft, 36% 3pt, 6.5 rpg, 4.5 apg, 2.3 spg, 1/4 bpg.
That doesn't look like a very bad player to me. That was still a very elite player, who may have lost a little bit of speed and quickness, but was stronger overall (went from 198 lbs in 1993 to 216 lbs in 1995). The Bulls team was just not that good in 1995, because the lost Cartwright and Paxson to retirement and Horace Grant to the Magic. It wasn't Jordan's fault. ButI think in 1995 the Rockets would win the Finals vs. the Bulls in 5 or 6 games.

Horry could matchup with Kukoc at PF, Drexler and Pippen cancel each oter out, Elie could play tough defense on Jordan, and Drexler could switch onto Jordan as well if needed, who Jordan cannot post up against. Kenny Smith and Armstrong would cancel each other out, but Hakeem would have his way with Longley, Wennington, and Purdue. Ron Harper is really the only option off the bench, while the Rockets had a more offensive bench player in Cassell.


With all of this being said, I believe that Hakeem and the Rockets would've beaten Jordan and the Bulls in the Finals in 1994 and 1995, with 1994 being the tougher of the 2 series.

 

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

 

Having Elie,Kenny,Sam as well as Horry would have given us a lot of closers too.
People also forget how deadly Hakeem was in the clutch on both ends as well. Jordan and Pippen would not have intimidated the Dream. In fact they would have had sleepless nights against him.As good as Ewing or Shaq were they weren't Hakeem Olajuwon, the ultimate weapon on the Houston Rockets!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xso1KXY7ok



This is the Bulls vs. Magic in the 1995 Playoffs. Jordan doesn't look like a very rusty basketball player to me...What do yall think?

 

read the post/recap of the game Otis dropped 30points on Horrace Grant's face.

Even the Kenny haters have to admit he was better than Armstong!

 

vernon maxwell was a great defender, and he played jordan as well as anyone did, but, i would have liked to see him go against jordan in the playoffs. maxwell would have contained him? nope

a couple of you say the rockets absolutely owned the bulls...
let's see
91-92

100-114 L
105-102 W

92-93

110-96 W
94-83 W

93-94

100-93 W
76-82 L

94-95(no jordan)

106-83 W
81-100 L

95-96(with jordan)
86-100 L
87-98 L

not counting the 94-95 season, wins and losses were even at 4-4

a team the rockets really owned was charlotte hornets going 9-1 in that same stretch. that is called owning