Do you think if the Astros spent more money would we have a better season?

"sighs".

This is where your argument falls to shambles. What have the A's done over the last TEN years that the Astros have failed to do. Zero pennants, a bunch of 1st round exits, a lot of disgruntled fans who root only for the uniform (since players will be gone within 3-5 years).

And that's with the A's getting the rare triumverant of Hudson/Zito/Mulder (which they don't have anything close to now). That's with the A's having TWO MVP candidates from the farm in Giambi/Tejada (which they don't have anything close to now).

Once again... you have ZERO knowledge of how farm systems are built/re-built if you're comparing the Astros only to the 90's Yankees (the last true dynasty in baseball), and the late 90's A's. Those farm systems ran in cycles, just like the Astros' current farm system is... in fact, name another team who has a core built solely from their farm system that compares to Oswalt, Berkman, Ensberg, Everett, Scott, Burke, Lidge, Qualls, (and then Wandy, Sampson, Lane... Buchholz/Hirsh/Willy just a year ago..).

In fact, had they kept the last three and not traded for Jennings, you'd hear more arguments about how the Stros do nothing but promote their farm system, and don't go out and trade for proven major leaguers, or sign proven free agents.

 

Also, if you simply wanted the Astros to be the A's (but with more money), they'd currently be paying big $$$ for Zito, Hudson, Mulder... and Giambi/Tejada... which is exactly opposite of what you apparently want this team to be (constantly bringing up productive prospects).

In fact, the A's are the A's BECAUSE they don't sign anybody long term. They HAVE to be bringing up prospects every year because otherwise they won't have a team.

 

Yep, and that's how they get those all-important draft picks, which they've turned into...not much so far, Swisher & Blanton? Whoopdee frikken do.

 

But they have a catcher that can hit!

 

He can pitch too, or so I've heard.

 

No. I don't expect our farm to be good. I'm just saying that our farm system needs time to rebuild. We've traded away prospects a lot more over the past years than the other way around. It's like building up debt. Sooner or later you have to pay for it. It was a great run, but it's coming to a close. We have an aging team with little infusion of young talent. It's the reason why Ausmus is still starting most of the time and we have to bring in Woody Williams in the offseason to shore up our rotation.

They have pretty much a perennial contender in a MUCH BETTER league and division. To use an NBA example, it's like being good in the west than in the East.

The thing about the A's is that with more money, they could've retained pieces that they can't replace, and brought in more FA whom they think are undervalued. It doesn't mean they automatically start bidding wars with the Yankees.

Farm system run in cycles not because they're fated to do so, but because of how teams react depending on their big league club. A great farm system produces a young talented core, which leads to wins, which leads to the club bringing in big league pieces(and giving away prospects/picks) to contend, which leads to worse farm system. When things go bad, the big league club trades away vets for prospects, let big ticket FA go, and the farm gets restocked. When clubs go against this norm, like the Marlins and Braves to a certain extent, they continously have a prosperous farm.

 

How exactly is our team aging?

We have Biggio, Ausmus and Woody who are old. This will most likely be Ausmus and Biggio's last seasons and we have replacements for Biggio at second (and then Burke in CF).

 

You're absolutely guaranteed to do well if you spend more money.

Yours truly,
Peter Angelos

 

Which is exactly what the Astros have done. And once you sign your Oswalt, Berkman, or Zito/Giambi long-term... you no longer are desperate to bring up continous prospects. You have a core of star players... its about adding proven players to that core to win now.

And, what prospects have you so enamored with the A's since Zito/Hudson/Mulder/Giambi/Tejada have all left. Swisher? Blanton? The oft-injured Harden? If anything... it was the signing of aging Frank Thomas, aging Milton Bradley, highly-paid Eric Chavez, and highly paid (by trade) Jason Kendall that brought them back to the playoffs.

So, what are u saying... the Astros should have let one of Oswalt or Berkman go in free agency to get more draft picks? They shouldn't have signed Carlos Lee? They shouldn't have traded away three blah young players for Jennings?

You want them to be more like the Marlins? Trade away every commodity you have for young players all the time? You think the Braves are knocking on the door to greatness? Shouldn't they have let go of aging Chipper or big ticket Andruw under your argument?

You're running around in circles.

Once again... name another successful team who's core consists of the magnitude of farm players the Astros have had:
Oswalt
Berkman
Burke
Ensberg
Everett
Scott
Lidge
Qualls
Sampson
Wandy
Willy/Hirsh/Buchholz

 

I give up. I concede. The Astros are doing well. They brought in the right pieces. We are a great team. We will continue to reload and contend every year, okay?

Note that I never criticized the front office. I never said that we've been doing things wrong. I just felt that we're at a tipping point where further simple spending(the original point of the thread) would not bring about great returns. I loved Hunsicker. I've watched every single Astros playoff game starting with that first year they got swept by the Braves, then the heartbreaker to the Padres. I thought throughout the this time that the Astros were either unlucky or just a piece or two away. So I loved all those moves like Alou, RJ, Beltran, Kent, Pettite, Clemens. But I also felt like time was running out.

My head told me in the middle of last season that we're finally over the hill. Even the run at the end didn't convince me otherwise. But I really hope I am wrong. That this Astros team will continue to bring up all-star talent from the farm and pick just the right player on the trade market for us to contend.

 

Sorry, should be Even the run at the end of last season didn't convince me otherwise.

 

I just don't understand the "over the hill" comment.

Go position by position...obviously, Biggio is over the hill...but his replacement is in place. Obviously, Ausmus....but we have young guys in the farm system who look like they'll be ready to compete there soon. Where else?? Is our rotation over the hill? 1B? SS? 3B? OF??

 

This is exactly my point... the Astros were "over the hill" in the late 90's, with Biggio, Bagwell, Cammy, Bell all getting up in age. What do they do? They get Berkman, Ensberg, Everett, and later Burke to help repleneish the youth. The rotation started getting older with Reynolds... so they replensih the ace spot with Oswalt. The bullpen was getting older with Powell, Wags.... so they replensih it with Dotel, Lidge, Qualls and now Wheeler.

The Astros have been "old" argument has been around since 1999. The only piece that remains since then is Biggio (and since Ausmus).

If you think the core of Berkman, Oswalt, Ensberg, Everett, Burke, Scott, Lee, Lidge, Qualls, Wheeler are not good that's one thing... but to call them "over the hill" is another.

The argument was never about if the Astros were perfect... you thought they needed a bunch of young prospects in ready to compete right now. Besides Pence replacing Burke (who replaces Bidge), and a new catcher, where else do you want a younger player? Is this really about Willy/Hirsh getting traded for a 28 year old proven pitcher?

 

You must have missed the playoff games in 1980, 1981 and 1986....

 

I apologize for being unborn, just born, and 5 at those years.

Ok, you're right. Those players were washed up. Take Bagwell, for example, and his horrendout OPS during this stretch: .981, 1.045, 1.049, and .965 from 1998-2001. Debating this further would be pointless because we obviously have different opinions of Astros players. I thought Bagwell and Biggio were still excellent in the late 90s early 2000. And I don't think much of our young players now. You think otherwise. And that lies our differences.

Over the hill means that our window for contending has closed, that's all. We had a great stretch, but I feel that we're closer to the rebuilding stage of the organization than as contenders. It's not about individual players.

And again, it looks like we simply have different opinions on Astros players. For example, I don't think we have any semi-decent catching prospects, but you obviously do. And that likely lies our differences in opinions.

 

i think we already rebuilt. you see it in guys starting this year. our core is young. whether you think they're good or not is a whole different thing. and it's only gonna get younger with the subtraction of biggio and ausmus next season and the addition of pence, maybe sooner rather than later.

 

You don't think as much of Berkman? Check out his OPS numbers for the last 3 years. And I didn't think the late 90's team were over the hill... I simply said, that was the "general" sentiment, since the team's core was primarily made up of either veteran home grown players or veteran FA's (kinda like it is now).

How'd you feel about them in 02 and 03? They signed an aging Jeff Kent, brought up the unproven Everett and Ensberg, had a scuffling Hidalgo, and aging Bagwell/Biggio/Ausmus/Wagner/Reynolds.

For me, THAT was the time I felt our window for contention had closed (for the late 90's teams)... then, the very next year, they make the NLCS.

I feel this year's team is MUCH better constructed than the 02 and 03 teams (and the overall league has more parity now than it did then). That still doesn't guarantee victories, but you add a couple of pieces (as the Stros did in 04), and you jump right back into the upper echelon.