I didn't see the Eddie House reference, which I think might be a fair comparison, but Head has shown that, given his contract, he can produce. Then how do you measure the mythical "handles?" Head does not turn the ball over a large number of times, but still you continue to claim that his "handles" aren't that good. How, exactly, do you attribute the "bad handles" label to Head when, based on watching 82 games last season, I have come to the conclusion that Head is efficient with the ball and doesn't turn it over much. Head is already an above average backup 2 guard IMO. I am "vouching pretty hard" for a guy that I believe will have a fantastic year for an extremely small contract price. He will show himself to be a player that is not "always going to be available on the market" and one that we should keep around. That is not to say that Head would be a deal-breaker in every potential trade that comes down the pike this year. However, I have not seen a trade proposal that nets us a "bigger, better half court player" that would offset both Juwan's numbers AND Head's upside (and numbers). For example, the Q-Rich trade would have us trading Juwan for Q-Rich (Juwan put up better numbers last year) AND throwing in Head. That trade, along with most of the others that I have seen, would be giving away a promising young player in Head and a proven, dependable veteran in Howard while receiving head cases, problem children, or just plain worse players that J-Ho and Head. IMO, he can handle the point in short stretches, but who cares, the guy is a backup SG, not a PG, everyone knows it.
Which I admitted in a later post. Everyone makes mistakes, I went back and corrected it by providing some more meaningful comparisons. Luther was all-rookie second team, which I believe does invite some comparisons to Paul. He was in the top ten rookies out of 60 drafted, which puts him in the top 15% or so. The reason it is unfair to compare Head to Paul is that Paul is a PG while Head is more of a SG. To be fair, Paul had some good talent around him and did not have the injury bug hit his team like it did the Rox. Luther had Yao for 57 games this year and only had TMac for 47. Nobody is claiming that Head is on the same level with Paul, I am just saying that he is a valuable addition, particularly given his rookie contract. If I had seen a single trade that netted us a player that "fits the team better than Luther," I would support it. So far, the trade proposals have not met that criteria. I was pointing out that Head did not have some outrageous number of turnovers like Ronny seemed to be implying. Heck, if Head was some kind of TO machine, JVG never would have played him nearly 30 MPG. BTW, I did give a number of the statistics you asked for and simply included one that I thought was telling, rank among guards in TO per game. I would have done an analysis based on TO per 48, but the NBA.com stat engine wouldn't give me that one, rookie. You can compare them if you like, as long as you keep in mind that Head is a backup 2 and those guys are superstars. I honestly don't care if Head ever gets a dunk in his career. As long as he finishes on the fast break, gets his layups in traffic, and knocks down the open three pointer (all things he was able to do last year) then he is doing his job. Who gives a rat's a$$ about the rookie game lob passes? I am talking aobut the best move for the Rox, not some silly, means-nothing game. Rookie year, he was 8-17 for 47.1%. Second year, he was 73-144 for 50.7%. Get your stats from the source... http://www.nba.com/playerfile/steve_kerr/ In November, Head shot 27-56 from the arc for a .482 average (above Kerr's rookie year) with a sample size three times as big as Kerr's. Head dropped off drastically in Dec. (rookie wall that Kerr didn't have a chance to hit because he played so little) before rebounding to .375 in March and .395 in April. First of all, the Kenny Smith comment was in response to this... Kenny Smith, while being nicknamed "The Jet" for his fast breaking ability, was not "explosive" in the years we won the championships, and we were definitely a half-court team then. I will not argue that he put up a fight in that slam-dunk contest, but once again, we are talking about the best thing for the Rox, not some silly, mean-nothing contest. As far as I remember, the ONLY thing I have claimed the Head will do is knock down the open jumper. In fact, I will take a tip jar bet of $20 or less (b/c that is all I can afford) that Head will in fact shoot 40% or better from the arc this year. Again, I am not claiming that Head will be a superstar, a Kobe, an Iverson, or even a Kerr. I am saying that he is going to be a valuable shooter on a team which, when healthy, will spread out the floor so that shooters have some room to operate. Head showed in the beginning of last year that he can shoot lights out from three point land with Yao (and toward the end of Nov., TMac) in the lineup. If we move Head, it MUST be for someone who is a lights-out shooter or we must acquire another one before the season. The single biggest place where we needed improvement last year was shooting. Head will provide it just like he did in November of last year. He has the ability and will show that ability again. Mark it, Dude!
Kenny Smith is a pass first PG. Iverson, Wade, Bobby Jackson, Arenas... are not. I don't like the Luther to Bobby Jackson comparison because Bobby Jackson was always a more complete offensive player at UM, and had the first step to be an undersized, score first 2 guard in the NBA. He would have been a surefire lottery pick if he had better grades and went to a bigger program. You really don't see that explosiveness in Luther. You certainly don't measure "handles" by TO's. It's how easily you can move with the ball, and Luther is nowhere near where he needs to be for a guard his size. Yes, 2 guards don't need to have a great handle but they are normally 6'5-6'7. At Luther's size, you need an above average handle. Essentially all you've said in this thread (in Luther's favor) is that he plays the passing lanes well, and his job is to knock down open shots created by Yao and McGrady. You admitted he was a defensive mismatch against starting 2's, but he would do fine against backup 2's. Why shouldn't we try our best to package him while his value is highest because of his potential, and replace him with Richie Frahm who is just as cheap and not a huge dropoff for the time being? Luther will be fine in this league once he learns how to defend bigger players, but that takes time. We need young talent for this team, but we also need the right pieces with our window of opportunity entering it's prime. Don't let your blinders for youth miss out on giving this team a vital upgrade for playoff basketball.
I originally voted NO, but only if we can get some body good in return..if we can get a legit PF or a lights out shooter than yes....or if we can get rid of Juwan and Luther, then we should make a trade...however, I'm not up for just letting him go for nothing....
Uh, it was sort of the reason behind the naming of the thread. To have some fun while discussing whether Luther was any good. Lighten up Francis !! DD
Kenny's best attribute was that he was a dead eye 3 shooter, he wasn't much of a pass 1st PG nor creator. He didn't excell in organizing a team and seeing the floor 2 steps ahead (Nash, Stockton) nor excelled as penetrator (KJ, Isiah, AI) to score or dish. Other than KS's dead eye shot when the ball came to him there (which should not be underestimated for its value around a Hakeem centered offense) there was nothing real special to his NBA game, but he was generally adequate in most respects. That is why KS blossumed so much more for the Rockets than when he was asked to lead or create. I don't like the comparison either. BJ is a natural, but streaky, scorer in a tweener guard body. BJ was more like a Iverson extra light. Head could be a lot more like Kenny than BJ, not a creator but a finisher. If Luther hits 3s and plays good defense he merely has to be adequate in other respects to be a very good player in the Rockets system. The Frahm idea would be OK if we just had to worry about one side of the ball, he is a huge drop of overall because we still need to defend other teams. Right now Luther, along with maybe Synder, have the most complete resumes of the Rocket guards. Neither VSpan nor JL3 have done anything close to what Head did in the NBA his 1st year, and Alston had an atrociously inefficient shooting season, so they are much bigger questionmarks than Head in my book. As for trading Luther the question is who are you going to get better? Who is this vital upgrade. I am open to trade any of VSpan, Luther, Snyder or Alston for more of a sure thing starting quality player, the problem is getting the trading partner to cooperate.
I am not certain what any of this had to do with anything I said... You don't measure how a player handles the ball by TOs? Dude, give me some of what you're smoking. I guess you can only measure "handles" in your reality by making assumptions based on perceptions that you pull from...where? yep, those would be two of his jobs along with finishing on the fast break since he is so good in the open court. Yep, but Kobe and Iverson are going to light up whoever is between them and the basket. Nobody shuts guys like that down. Head is a fine team defender and has the potential to be an above average defensive player, particularly under the tutelage of JVG. You must be smoking some sweet, SWEET cheeba. Do a head to head lookup of Head versus Frahm and then try to tell me (without giggling and giving away your THC level) that Frahm is "not a huge dropoff." And it takes less time under the direction of guys like JVG. It is not my "blinders for youth," it is a combination of two things... 1) Luther Head can do something that was a severe deficiency on this team last year: SHOOT THE BALL! 2) I have not seen a single trade proposal that gave up Head and got a substantially better player in return. I would not make Head a deal-breaker for any and every trade conversation, but unless the player we get in return is really an upgrade, I would not trade Head.
If I'm not mistaken Kenny Smith was a top 5 pick in his draft class, he had alot going for him when he came into the league. I guess pass-first isn't the best term to use for him -- while he came into the league as a very capable scorer his job during the championship years was to control the pace of the game and knock down open jumpers. Like Alston, he had a natural handle and could move easily with the ball. That being the difference between those two and Head. Playing the passing lanes doesn't equate to playing good defense. Doesn't have the size or strength this early in his career to be effective guarding most 2 guards, and gave up a PER of 16 last year against SG's. Take a look at these other undersized 2 guards in comparison (all stats are against opposing 2's): Opposing SG PER, opp SG FG% Jason Terry - 11.7, 41.5% Damon Jones - 12.5, 45.2% Ben Gordon - 12.8, 44.5% Maurice Williams - 14.3, 50% Luther Head - 16.2, 49.5% For the most part, Ben Gordon is regarded as a poor defender so you can imagine how effective Luther was defensively last season at the 2. As of now the best time to play him is down the stretch at the 1, and that's IF Alston and Spanoulis aren't knocking down their open jumpers. Agreed.
Andy, you've made atleast 5 references to mar1juana in this thread. Is there something you aren't telling us? Brandon Roy. And that's about all that's worth replying to from your last post. Consider it a pity response after being comprehensively outdebated by the hippie weed smoker.
Yes, I think you are getting very high. CD said that he spend the entire day of the Draft trying to move up to get Roy and was not able to. How exactly would you plan on getting him for Head? For the record, I would let go of Head in a trade for Roy, but why don't we look at realistic scenarios rather than pipe dreams. Yeah, sure rook. You claim that Frahm would not be a huge dropoff in talent level... You claim that you cannot measure a player's "handles" by looking at his turnovers... You claim that Head can't guard guys like Kobe, Wade, and Iverson (as if anyone can)... You totally overlook the fact that Head does the one thing that the team from last year needs: Shooting. And then you say that you want to trade Head for Brandon Roy?!?!? I would love to trade Alston for Billups and Juwan for Brand too, but lets look at reality, not some Ronny fantasy land.
Yes, I think you are getting very high. CD said that he spend the entire day of the Draft trying to move up to get Roy and was not able to. How exactly would you plan on getting him for Head? For the record, I would let go of Head in a trade for Roy, but why don't we look at realistic scenarios rather than pipe dreams. Yeah, sure rook. You claim that Frahm would not be a huge dropoff in talent level... You claim that you cannot measure a player's "handles" by looking at his turnovers... You claim that Head can't guard guys like Kobe, Wade, and Iverson (as if anyone can)... You totally overlook the fact that Head does the one thing that the team from last year needs: Shooting. And then you say that you want to trade Head for Brandon Roy?!?!? I would love to trade Alston for Billups and Juwan for Brand too, but lets look at reality, not some Ronny fantasy land.
This thread is played out...there isn't much else to talk about....Luther Head is a decent player but he doesn't deserve this much publicity and trade talk...hopefully the rockets will make a move soon so we ahve something to talk about..and I can stop going between this thread and the Yao Ming" Summer acitivities thread....
In case you didn't know, #8 + Luther Head for #6 (Roy) was in all likelihood set to go down, but Portland screwed us over by trading Telfair and taking Foye with the 7th pick. Let me put this simply for you... according to your logic, Yao Ming has better 'handles' than Steve Nash. Explain. Richie Frahm does it just as well. Trade Head while his value is highest.
Kenny was considered a mild dissappointment as an NBA player until he played for the Rockets. I wouldn't say he controlled the pace either, at least by the time the Rockets peaked (93-). By that time he usually brought the ball up (though Derrick Harper made him look vulnearable in this respect in the 94 finals), handed it Horry or a wing player (who then dumped it in to Hakeem), and parked at the 3 line to bury a shot if left open. He was fast but not quick (pretty good finishing a break, but not orchestrating one), wasn't a penetraitor or creater to break down defenses (that is why Sam was brought it at times), was always relatively low in assists per minute or A/TO (say compared to Sam or Alston) during the Rockets best years (Kenny never averaged 5 assists per game after 93). Overall Kenny was a very average NBA player during those years--that why he didn't cost anything like a top 6 pick to acquire (he was picked 6th by the Kings, but the Rockets basically gave up a late 1st for him)--but to his credit he was very effective playing on a team with Hakeem Olajawon. I'd much rather have a guy who does a bunch of things mediocre but is deadly at the 3--a Kenny Smith lite, than a Rafer Alston for this Rocket team. If Luther can just get close to mediocre on traditional point guard skills, but hit the open 3 with consistency, I'd start him over what the Rockets have now. With Tmac and Yao you don't need a PG to "control things".
