Sounds to me like you are really struggling to evaluate some of the talent on this team. No problem, I am more than willing to help you out. Luther Head is not an explosive player in the NBA. He had the physical tools to be explosive in college, but the NBA is a different story. Watch how Maurice Ager plays this year (another undersized 2 guard, drafted by Dallas). He has the lateral movement defensively and the explosive first step on offense to slowly mold himself into a starting 2 guard in the NBA. Knocking down open shots and playing the passing lanes isn't the rarest commodity in the NBA. And although Luther was a blur in the open court, how many times did he actually finish in traffic? That's right, very few. Let me re-iterate the point I've been trying to make in the past couple of posts: Unless you have the athleticism, finishing ability, or explosive first step of a Gilbert Arenas, Dwayne Wade, Allen Iverson... you aren't a great fit for a half court team. Steve Nash is the exception, but his step back jumper, being ambidexturous and plethora of fakes help. I think we can get a greater value for THIS team by putting Juwan Howard and Luther Head on the trade market. Luther would be better suited on a full court team, or a team that can takes shots early in transition. Luckily, Morey already knows this! We can re-sign Richie Frahm and get most of the things Luther brought to the table for this team in a half court setting. And I'm really sorry you wasted all that time making an irrevelant point about the turnovers. Luther played in less minutes than all of those guys, and played off the ball most of the time. All the players you mentioned are either PG's or SG's expected to create their own shot. Like you said, Head's job most of the time was to camp on the perimeter and knock down open jumpers. Batter is not guarding explosive 2 guards. That's not his game, he will be at the 3 and 4 the entire season. Bringing in Snyder was a great move, and he will most likely be starting if no more moves are made. With the signings of Spanoulis and Lucas III, things aren't looking bright for Luther's future on this team. I love the guy, he's humble and willing to learn, I just understand his ceiling is limited and this is probably the best time to trade him.
Head's limited by a lot of things, among which is his height, lack of ballhandling/PG skills, not a great wingspan, needs work finishing around the basket, etc, but what I'm most impressed about is the way he conducted himself. With the team falling apart from injuries, he took what opportunities were presented to him and ran with it. He's not like many other rookies who feel entitled to playing time and this ability to stay grounded will drive his improvement curve up. Even in an unstable environment where he didn't know who was going down next game, he still had his **** together for the season. Plus, how many rookies can you name that were as clutch as this kid was? He'll be useful off the bench, but definitely not a starter (which is what I feel the people who do have a problem with him are griping about.)
I don't need help from a rookie to "evaluate talent," I am able to look at the numbers with anyone and watched every single game last year. Something tells me I have at least as good an idea of the talent on our team as you do. Once again, you are trying to define Head as a starting 2, which nobody is arguing. Head has the capacity to be an incredible 3 point specialist, as evidenced by his percentage through 30 or so games last year. Of course, nobody ever heard of a 3 point specialist doing anything if they weren't "explosive" or under 6'2". [cough] Steve Kerr [/cough] Perhaps he will, but how does that translate into an argument about a backup quality 2 guard? Head may never be a starter in the NBA, but he is a known commodity and is a worthwhile investment, particularly when compared to Quentin Richardson. How many games did you watch again? I saw Luther finish in traffic off the glass a LOT last season. Yeah, Kenny Smith sucked for us from '93 to '95. Besides, you are now comparing Luther Head to superstars. He does have TMac and Yao who will be creating so that he can concentrate on what we will see as his specialty: Knocking down the open 3 point shot. I doubt it. Unless you can come up with something that shows that Head and Howard could get better value in return, I will continue to believe that those guys will be solid for us just as they have been. Back away from the bong. And I am sorry that you wasted all that time comparing Luther Head to guys like Nash, Iverson, Wade, and Kobe. Those were completely irrelevant points. My point about Head's turnovers was an aside (and a copy and paste job, no time wasted) and a response to your accusation that he somehow suffered from a lack of "handles." He was number 78 on that list, and I would be willing to bet that there were plenty of guys on that list with comparable or less minutes than Luther. Neither would Head most of the time. He would be guarding the bench players, not the Kobes, Wades, and Iversons. Agreed. Lucas is at best a third string and couldn't make the team last year behind Head. Spanoulis has an opportunity, but he is still an unproven European rookie. Giving a lot of credit to them, aren't you? And you will eat your words around November 15th after he begins to show what an entire offseason of shooting threes will do for an already sweet shooter's stroke. Mark it, Dude!
Pardon me, I wasn't aware that this site is the one and only place to discuss basketball. No, I'm comparing him to successful undersized guards who are better scorers than natural PG's. Kenny Smith was a solid starting PG, who had the ability to control the flow of the game and was a natural at handling the ball being from the Bronx and all. In 28 minutes, Luther turns the ball over 1.5 times a game and has little to no ball handling responsibilites on this team. Not expected to isolate and create his own shot either! Does not have a natural handle. Which is why we have signed Spanoulis and Lucas. So Luther is coming off the bench and still guarding 6'5-6'6 SG's. Automatic mismatch in the opposing teams favor. Irrevelant, because: And why is Antonio Daniels on that list? I know he didn't average more than 1.5 TO per game, he's barely averaged more than 1 TO per game for his entire career.
Pardon me, I wasn't aware that this site is the one and only place to discuss basketball. No, I'm comparing him to successful undersized guards who are better scorers than natural PG's. Kenny Smith was a solid starting PG, who had the ability to control the flow of the game and was a natural at handling the ball being from the Bronx and all. In 28 minutes, Luther turns the ball over 1.5 times a game and has little to no ball handling responsibilites on this team. Not expected to isolate and create his own shot either! Does not have a natural handle. Which is why we have signed Spanoulis and Lucas. So Luther is coming off the bench and still guarding 6'5-6'6 SG's. Automatic mismatch in the opposing teams favor. Doesn't have the strength or experience of a David Wesley yet to make up for his shortcomings. Irrevelant, because: And why is Antonio Daniels on that list? I know he didn't average more than 1.5 TO per game, he's barely averaged more than 1 TO per game for his entire career.
Nope, just the best place to discuss Rockets basketball. You compared him to superstars who get far more minutes, touches, and opportunities. You compared him to Gilbert Arenas, Dwayne Wade, Allen Iverson, and Steve Nash for crying out loud. As far as TOs go, I ask again whether you watched any games this year. Luther was expected to do some creating (pick and rolls, give and gos, pick and pops) and STILL averaged less turnovers in the same or less minutes as... Jerry Stackhouse, 28 MPG, 2.2 TOPG Mike Miller, 30.8 MPG , 1.9 TOPG Manu Ginobili, 28 MPG, 1.9 TOPG Flip Murray, 27.8 MPG, 1.8 TOPG Gordon Giricek, 25.8 MPG, 1.7 TOPG Marquis Daniels, 28.8 MPG, 1.6 TOPG Fred Jones, 27.1 MPG, 1.6 TOPG How can you possibly say that it is an "automatic mismatch," implying that every single backup SG in the league is taller and better than Head? If Head can come in and knock down the open jumper, he will be doing his job by keeping defenses honest. That means that teams will have to give up Head's three pointers or Yao and TMac's points. That is what a backup shooter does and Head does it well and will be much improved playing alongside a healthy TMac and Yao. As I said in my original post, that list was the postseason list. The list in this post is guys who played roughly the same or less minutes than Head, are off-guards, and don't have the responsibility of bringing the ball up. I would never clam that Head is anything like Nash in his ballhandling ability, but inferring that he is some kind of turnover machine when his assist to turnover ratio is 1.8 is simply insane.
A few points.... -Head has shown he belongs in the NBA, V. Span and Lucas have not. -Snyder and Alston probably have more talent, but Alston's shooting potential/consistency is much lower than Head's, and Snyder has been discarded for some reason by two teams already. -Head is two inches taller than Wesley, who had a long career as an SG, and is taller and bigger than Dallas's starting 2, Jason Terry. Personally I am very disturbed about the Rockets guard situation. So despite's Head's lack of star potential, he has about as good a shot as any other current Rocket player to be a good NBA player and good team citizen. I am worried about a year 2 rougher for him than year 1 (fall off in production/efficiency)--but right now Head is firmly in the picture and about as good a shot as we got. This is not so much a sign that I think Head will be a quality regular rotation NBA player--he may or may not be, but is more an indictment of the other Rocket guards' prospects as well.
If we can tuly get a "bigger fish," that is one thing, but the proposals I have seen have not gotten bigger fish for him.
I compared his attributes to their attributes. You appeared to be offended when I compared him to Richie Frahm and Eddie House, more realistic comparisons. Although he is definitely a better slasher than them. Impressive list, which is narrowed down even further when you consider Murray and Stackhouse dominate the ball when they're on the court, and Ginobili is a relentless slasher. Regardless, turnovers don't equate to having a good handle. Kobe, Nash, McGrady, etc. all have great handles but average a good number of TO's per game. You have to think big. It was our GM who said you need above average players to win championships, and players like Luther are always going to be available on the market. You're vouching mighty hard for a guy whose role is to come in and knock down open jumpers. If you can ship Luther to a more open system and get a bigger, better half court player in return, why not do it? Turnover machine? All I said was the guy doesn't have the handle to run the point, everyone knows it, we didn't sign 2 other PG's this offseason for nothing.
Wesley is a power pack who was an excellent defender. Head isn't there yet, it will take a while. Jason Terry is ridiculously athletic and an excellent penetrator with a nasty step back jumper. One of the attributes I said you needed to be a successful undersized guard in the league. Head will be a quality bench player in the right system. In Houston, he will be coming off the bench to knock down open jumpers... he's not the greatest of penetrators but in a system with more spacing he can make things happen. We need to continue to dangle him as trade bait.
Honestly.. I do not think we need head at the moment. With us getting Synder, and JL3 plus having Alston, Sura (Which is now going to play), Wesley (Might come back he isn't that bad especially as a back up), and Richie Frahm. Im sure we could package Head and Howard/ or Hayes(Brather have Howard go thou). For a pretty good player in return.
I dont think we should trade him because of his 3 pt shooting and stealing ability. He can D up bigger guards better than David Wesley at this point. Thats not saying much at all but he is not as bad at guarding bigger guys as some people make it seem. Now if it takes him to dump Juwan's contract...Im all for it assuming we get close to fair value in the trade.
He is a good backup, and I think he will be great growing next couple years. My point of view ,he's involved in trade rumors just because of his potential.
andymoon, what can I say? Your list of players with more turnovers than Luther is ridiculous. You picked PLAYOFF PLAYERS even. Luther didn't make the playoffs. If he were as great as you seem to think couldn't he have performed at least half as good as Chris Paul? I actually think it's unfair to compare Luther to Chris Paul, which is exactly my point. I mean hey, Luther had Yao Ming. Chris Paul had some talent around him but nothing like Yao, yet look what he did. If Luther could do some of that, then I'd want him. Otherwise I will happilly accept that people like you think Luther is going to be great and then as a Rockets fan use that as trade value for someone that fits the team better than Luther. When you provide stats, it would be a lot nicer if you provided stats that mattered and not some random "NBA Rank" in every category. Pts/game, Mins/Game, Pts/48 minutes, etc. Even minutes per game are not always great stats to go by--you have to consider many aspects of the system they're playing in, too. Thise silly "78th in the league in TO" stats aren't going to cut it from a guy demeaningly calling someone a "Rookie" in the same thread. A fourth of our fast breaks? Where does that rank for the whole season for Luther on fast breaks? How does it relate to Kobe and Iverson? Oh wait, STOP COMPARING LUTHER TO KOBE AND IVERSON. I saw Luther try to dunk in the Rookies game in Houston when we had All-Star weekend here. His teammates kept trying to set him up with a lob, prolly 7 times in the game but he never made it!! Explosive? Ok, let's compare him to shorty Iverson. Remember his rookie year dunk highlights? And when he decided to start dunking again late last season? That guy is 6'0. Steve Kerr is a WAY BETTER three point shooter than Luther Head, and was early in his career. WAY BETTER. In his rookie year he shot 20-46(3PM-3PA) from behind the arc for 47.1%. His second year he shot 192-432 from behind the arc for the season for 50.7%. In his first wo years, Steve Kerr shot higher than his career 3P% and this was before all of those clutch shots for the Bulls and Spurs,so Luther could have a chance. But he's certainly not starting out the way Kerr did. Luther has shown he can shoot the three like many of his peers, but a three point specialist? I HOPE he can shoot 40% this season, but I doubt it. Maybe in Phoenix or NY or something. In this excerpt you are sarcastically saying Kenny Smith sucked because you somehow seem to think that Kenny Smith did not have "the athleticism, finishing ability, or explosive first step." Here's a little slam dunk contest history: "1990 Finally Dominique Wilkins decided to participate in the contest, and won it. Kenny Smith was the surprise and a good finalist with a great dunk, but the classic movement of Dominique made him champion again." Obviously Kenny Smith has some athleticism and leaping ability, able to impress at the contest. It's not all about dunking when it comes to athleticism becasue quickness is important and so are many other things, but Kenny could obviously jump higher and hang longer than Luther and that has to mean something in the area of athleticism. You think he's going to shoot 40% from the arc? (I say 40% and not 50% because your suggestion that he is a 50% shooter or similar to Kerr is downright comical) That would be great, because he''s not going to do any of the other things you suggested nearly to the extent that you seem to believe.
