I am sorry for parts of my posts. We've all been dragged way off the original topic. I didn't mean to be so hyper. But let me explain why I did... I strongly believe that Jordan, though a very good player, certainly one of the top 25 or so players ever, is not the greatest. It really annoys me when people just say he's the best ever and then leave it, assuming that opinion is infallible. Most of the time, they are right, because 95% of people think Jordan's the best ever. I think that's a large part of media brainwashing, but then that's just me. Posters on this board, whom I shall not name, and who haven't even posted here yet (I think) have utterly frustrated me by giving no facts or points to argue. This argument has been far more reasonable, but I think I may have went into auto-"make brainwashed people see the light" mode. That's the way I see it, anyway. LilStevie3, mav3434, Stylez, and anyone else, I did not mean to get on your nerves. I will try to respond to some of the things you've said, but if I don't get them all, tell me, and I'll post some more replies. It was just that, as I said above, I have been through these arguments many times before. As for Jordan making other players better, I cannot put it more elegantly than this page: http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm I would again cite the fact that the 94 Bulls won only 2 fewer games without Jordan. Also, Jordan's playoff record without Jordan is 2-9. As for desire, I think that is really impossible to argue. But I have one quote vaguely pertaining to this that you might like: "no one shoots a basketball and means to miss" -- Jerry Reynolds. Everyone wants to win, and I find it hard to believe that Jordan just wanted it more. Stockton and Malone wanted to win really badly in 98, more so than Jordan, who had won 5 times. Oh well. mav3434 makes a good point in saying that Kobe has developed differently than Jordan because of Shaq. Perhaps in later years Kobe will still try to more all-around, as he is now, instead of bearing the brunt of the scoring load as Jordan was forced to do in the 80s. We'll just have to wait and see. I say again that, for reasons I have already posted on this thread, I think Kobe's defense is better than Jordan's, even pre-retirement. When Jordan guarded Magic that first game, he got torched. From game 2 on, Jordan usually wasn't guarding him, only on switches. I've posted about Kobe on Jordan's teams, but Jordan on Kobe's teams? It would depend on whether Jordan was already used to being the center of attention. If that's the case, I think the Jordan-Shaq feuds would be far worse than the Kobe-Shaq ones. I think it would not work very well. But did Jordan have the skill? Hell yes. Why do I hate Jordan so much? For one, as I've said above, everyone assumes he's the best. Years of that, while you think differently, begin to wear on you. Secondly, and again as I've said, I consider a lot of Jordan's game a media creation. Thirdly, he is arrogant and not a very nice person to hang around. Fourthly, by making 36 million in his last year, Jordan basically forced Pippen to leave (he was making 3 million). In interviews, Pippen said he would stay if his pay was doubled (to 6 million). Then, refusing to fork up the money, Jordan said that Pippen was a quitter, and that he'd stay one more year if Pippen would. That said when he had quit in 94 and "abandoned" his team. That said after he had pledged never to wear #23 again in honor of his father, then did so. All Jordan was doing was placing blame, and everyone took the bait. He did the same with Collins, when he laid the blame on Collins for the Wizard's defeated season... Everone was way more civilized back in the 60s, when $100,000 was a big salary . But this is all off-topic anyway.
Interesting article from your link, Drexlerfan22, but this is obviously written by a Jordan hater. One must be objective when writing, but this article was much too subjective towards bashing Jordan. The fact regarding Jordan's comeback is ridiculous. Although Rodman's acquisition was essential to the Bull's title, it was much more important for Jordan to train and regain his basketball ability. It's impossible for one to take 1 and 3/4 seasons off from a sport, and come back and dominate again. Yes, even for Michael Jordan. Once again, bottom line is: with Jordan for 6 full seasons: 6 championships w/ a extremely rusty Jordan for minimal time in the regular season and playoffs: loss in ECF w/o Jordan for 1 full season: loss in 2nd round of playoffs All you have to do to gauge Jordan's value to his teammates is to 1. talk to his former teammates, because they openly admit of Jordan's value to their games. 2. look at how all of his teammates have performed w/o Jordan. Not one of them, with the exception of Pippen from '93-'95, have performed at the same level they did w/ Jordan. Regarding the Pippen issue, I think it is a combination of 2 things that made Pippen as good as he was: the offense Phil Jackson employed and Michael Jordan. After he lost both, he was never the same player. Try to push away your hate for Michael Jordan when you post; it gets blatantly noticeable. Your last post was much better .
Hey Drexler fan 22, don't sweat it. We all get caught up in the hate and/or aggravation. Hell, I started a thread proclaiming my hate for Kobe. This such an interesting debate and there have been good points made on both sides. Yes Jordan like Kobe is an arrogant @$$ but I truly believed he earned it (at least as much as someone can earn the right to be a jerk). His teammates didn't like him but they ALL had to recognize he was the man. He made them house hold names. If Jim Paxon played for the Rockets back in the day he would have went the way of Mat Malloney, Scottie Brooks or Bryce Drew. Same goes for BJ Armstrong. We can all name all those scruby Bull Centers easier than we can name a scruby ex-Rocket C (Dave Feitl). Pip had one good year w/o MJ but a lot of people (myself included) feel that he was exposed for the player he really is when he came to Houston (He is NOT a top 50 player IMHO. Top 75, but not top 50). Jordan benefited from himself while Kobe benefits from Shaq.
I know AirJudden's pages aren't unbiased, although he's not a Jordan hater. He just doesn't feel that Jordan is the best ever (like me). Here's one more link you should look at; just take the facts from it and forget the opinions. http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm Here is the larger page linking to those two sections: http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/index.htm
My response is still the same as in my previous post. Read it to find my opinion on some of the points he presented. BTW, the best way to gauge how great a player is, is to ask the players that have actually played against the player. I have read in the papers and seen on TV direct quotes from many players claiming that Michael Jordan is the greatest player of all time. Two of the candidates this guy mentioned for the title, Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, both stated that MJ was the greatest player of all time. Larry Bird took it even further calling MJ, "god disguised as Michael Jordan". Wilt was more than likely the most dominant player ever, but other than Bill Russell, he had no real competition, just like Shaq today. Put him in the mid 90's, where he'd have to go against the likes of Shaq, Hakeem, Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo, and Alonzo Mourning, along with the much more physical play of the modern style of basketball, and would he be able to put up the astounding numbers that he was able to back then? Who knows, but I'm getting off track here. I guess you two were able to resist the brainwashing of the media, and more than 95% of the people/writers/players out there are gullible idiots that have succumbed to it. Anyways, interesting site, thanks for the link
Wow, how did I miss this. Ok, not wanting to miss a shot is a lot different from not wanting to lose. Vince Carter does not want to miss a shot; but he does not, at least not yet, have the desire to avoid losing at all costs. He also does not have the desire to put in what it takes to win. If he did, he would work on his d, and take the beating of driving inside on offense, instead of lofting up 3's. Jordan had this insane desire to wn. His roomate in college, Buzz Peterson, even told stories about how Jordan would make Buzz stay up with him all night to play pool or cards whenever he lost to Buzz. They would play until Jordan won. Sounds like an a**hole, but that is a great example of the lengths Jordan would go to in order to win. I heard Steve Kerr tell stories of Jordan pissing all his teammates off, because of how hard Jordan would play in practice, just cause he wanted to win. I mean, not only did the guy want to win so badly, but he could not concede a loss in anything. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this about the win total thing. Win totals matter if you're a young team trying to build for improvement (Wizards/Clippers last year are examples). But once you're a perennial playoff team, the regular season record means absolutely nothing. The Lakers have proven this the last 2 years in a positive way, the Spurs have proven this in the negative way(by losing). The '94-'95 Rockets also proved it. Once you're at or near contender status, it's what you do in the playoffs that count.
KB8 is legit. The only knock versus him is the fact that he refuses to admit that he emulates MJ. But he does everything like him. From ballin to the way Mike walks to the way Mike chews his gum. Everything. Maybe Kobe doesn't notice it though. That's scary. Maybe he has emulated a personality and lost his own. Perhaps that's some of the things that Reggie Miller was hinting at......... Either way, I'd give him the ball at the end of the game.
Kobe will never be as good as Jordan. He'll be better than Drexler over his career and that's saying a lot.
Even if Kobe wins three championships on his own, he still won't be held as greater than Jordan. Some of it isn't his fault. It's a weaker and more diluted league than the great players that Jordan faced. If MJ's first three championships were the standard Kobe was compared to...
First, I would argue that what competition Wilt did have, Kareem, Cowens, Reed, Embry, Kerr, Lovellette, etc. he had to play many more times because there were far fewer teams (early on: 8). Even if the players weren't as good, there were only 80 players in the league, not 348. They got the creme of the crop. As for the "more physical play?" This is frankly ridiculous. Let me tell you a story: one day, a rookie in the NBA walked into the locker room and saw that every single player had a little wooden box next to his locker. He had no idea what they were. He found out quickly that they were for the players' false teeth, because no one he ever met in the NBA ever had all his teeth. There were no flagrants, and some centers have freely admitted to "karate chopping Wilt in the stomach when he went up for a shot" and getting no foul. Anyway, gotta run. I respect your opinion.
Not necessarily. True, the raptors and grizzlies are around, and AMerican players can't shoot worth a damn, but the current generation of superstars, since they came out of high school, has yet to even approach their prime years. Remember it took Olajuwon about 7-8 years to go from good to great. Second, the influx of foreigners means the talent pool is much, much, much deeper than it used to be. In a few years, I believe the talent base in the league will be far superior to the way it was around the mid to late 90's.
All of Wilt's competition that you did name, other than Kareem and Reed, weren't exactly offensive juggernauts. Trying to guard Shaq's power, Hakeem's insane array of post moves, on top of David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo's razor-sharp elbows, and Alonzo Mourning would have been tough for even Wilt. As I said before, we have no idea how Wilt would have fared against the likes of these centers, but Hakeem had to go against much tougher competition throughout his career compared to the competition Wilt had to face (in no way does that connotate that Hakeem is better). Would Wilt rise above all of the names that I have posted and dominate in the same fashion that he did back then? Who knows Regarding the physical play, I have not seen much from Wilt's playing days other than 5-10 games. If you say it's more physical then, then I guess I'd have to believe you. The Knicks of the 90's and Pistons of the late 80's/early 90's were very physical/dirty teams. From what I have seen, the players are much stronger today of course, and like to bump and grab more. It's kind of like a wrestling match down in the post. How would Wilt hold up to a Shaq dropstep as Shaq drops his shoulder into Wilt's jaw and dunks on him? I honestly don't know. OK anyways, we're getting way off track.
kb8 conSISTENTLY copies jordan. copying a great player doesn't make you a great player.The man needs to be orginal.Jordan is orginal.And when lebron James get to the league,he'll be another copier.Great talent comes with great orginality.
Big deal, Jordan copied David Thompson and Julius Erving, the Romans copied the ancient Greeks. You've got to start somewhere.
I've been on vacation (San Francisco!), so I admit I haven't waded entirely through this thread, but I'll put in my 2 cents. Kobe is a great player, and will get better- if he's not seriously injured. Having said that, he's a LAKER... therefore, I must hate him. I hated Bird when he was playing because he was a CELTIC. Jordan because he was a BULL. See the trend here? I loved their game, and they should be, will be, or are in the Hall. But when they were playing, or are playing, they are the enemy. They are not Rockets, and they are on the OTHER TEAM! It just seems pretty simple to me. Thank you.
Thank you. I love how the blind Kobe haters cry about him being an MJ wannabe. Is it Kobe's fault that he was born after MJ? The haters will always hate... If Kobe were playing before MJ, people would prob say MJ was a Kobe wannabe. Kobe haters are probably the single-most ignorant sports fans I know of.
