I personally simply think its funny how some people say Kobe will end up being better than Jordan. Where did that come from?? Because Kobe is winning rings so early in his career?? If Jordan had Shaq on his team from anytime between his rookie year to now they would win championship after championship.
When Jordan came into the league he was seasoned from 3 years of college ball with NC plus a gold metal in the Olympics with coach Knight. Kobe didn't have any such coaching. Nor did he have Jordan's body which was NBA ready. I liken Jordan's rookie year to Shaq's. An instant sensation doing thing not many people saw on the floor. Could Kobe now take those Bulls teams and win 6? No I don't think so. He isn't as strong as Jordan was and I don't think he could take the beating. Nor does he have the same killer instinct (it's getting there...). Kobe doesn't push his teammates (in a positive sense) to make them better. Lastly, I think his athleticism is close but he doesn't have Jordan's huge mitts which (in my opinion) was so crucial to making Jordan the best. Kobe can't finish, manuver, fake or create with hands that can't grip the ball confidently. It's sad really because other than that, he has it all.
Jordan earned the right to call out Collins. He is the greatest player EVER! After you've accomplished ALL the things Jordan has, you can call out coaches (I don't think he should have done it but IF anyone can, its MJ). I don't think anyone here is saying Kobe is a scrub. He's top 5 for sure but I really believe he benifits form playing w/ the most dominant palyer in the game. Maybe in 3-4 years you can put Kobe on the Bulls teams and they would win, but not now. HG was by no means a dominant PF. He was solid but not dominant. Rodman was a great rebounder but he was a complete no-factor on offense which was more pressure on MJ. Pip (as seen since he left the Bulls) was perhaps not as good as everyone thought. Jordan made an average team a dynasty. I mean, I'd take half the current Rockets over most of the Bulls (i.e. Griff over HG, Ming over Perdue/Winnington, Francis over any and every Bull PG) or current Lakers (Shaq over all Bull C, Horry over HG
It was 2 years of ball, but your point is well taken. One thing though, when Jordan came into the league, he was very skinny. Maybe even thinner than Kobe was when he entered the league. It took beatings from the Pistons and Knicks for Jordan to realize that he needed to bulk up, which is when he hooked up with now renown trainer, Tim Grover. I seriously doubt Kobe could have survived the beatings from the Piston and Knicks in the east and still have enough energy to take his team to victory in the finals.
Well I don't think any player should call out a coach in public. It should be done in private, I don't care if you're Jordan or Buchler. There are some things the best player in the world can get away with, but that's not one of them imho. It's not good for the team.
My bad on that. No way MJ was thinner than KB his rookie year. I agree MJ got a hell of a lot stronger since he entered the league but he wasn't being pushed around as badly as suggested his first few years. Hell, MJ in the 84 games was pretty cut, tho skinny. Keep in mind in the mid-80's there weren't too many guys in the league like Corey Maggette, Ben Wallace, or other physical specimens. Weight training is essential today but wasn't back then since many didn't do it at all.
I agree, I watched the NJ-LA regular season game at the Meadowlands this season when Shaq was injured. NJ won in OT, or the very end, I can't remember. Kobe was brilliant but everybody else was sucking hard. Has he learned to elevate his team yet? Didn't look like it that night. Maybe the team isn't geared to his strengths (transition)? Will he learn to do so later on? who knows But then again, to use the comparison that I love to hate, the 23 year old michael who scofred 37 ppg on 28 shots a game wasn't exactly looking to make his teammates better either. As for this: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by UTKaluman597 I personally simply think its funny how some people say Kobe will end up being better than Jordan. Where did that come from?? Because Kobe is winning rings so early in his career?? If Jordan had Shaq on his team from anytime between his rookie year to now they would win championship after championship. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Check the title of this thread. It's not "Kobe is a super great player" It's "do you hate Kobe Bryant" The Anti-Kobes always cite to Jordan; the Pro-Kobes do the same. It's not really anybody's fault, their games are very simlar and close in time; the comparisons are inevitable. Not even the hardest core Kobe fans, or even Kobe himself, would say its certain that he will end up being better than Jordan. It tends to break down to whether he is overrated or not. Some think he is, some think he isn't
Kobe scores 56 in less than 36 minutes w/o Shaq. But he was playing the Griz so does that count? I don't think there's any Q that Kobe w/o Shaq would score and score a lot. But would he take his team on his back to the promised land?
Glad to see your opinion Mav. Now how about we switch things around. You put Michael Jordan with Shaquille O'Neal and the rest of the Lakers instead of Kobe for his first 5 or 6 years in the league, and tell me how successful Jordan would have been. Personally, I don't even want to imagine Jordan and Shaq on a team together. That team would win 75 games year after year, given Jordan's unparalleled determination to win, and after that they would steamroll through the playoffs. Kobe does not have the same focus or desire.
The interesting thing is who would be who would be the man and how that would affect mj's development. If I were a coach I would be inclined to go with shaq early on bc it is so simple and so easy, a 2 footer is a higher % than a 15 footer. Who knows? Maybe learning to share early on would have made Jordan evn better later? or maybe he would work even harder to outshine shaq? As far as desire goes, you are probably right. Jordan was a kid from rural NC cut from his highscool team who worked for everything, and had the benefit of learning from dean smith. Kobe grew up rich in a basketball family in the era where highschool players are treated like gods (ironically due in part to the transcendent global financial success of jordan) and skipped college; everything came easy for him, hence his lack of desire.
Name someone in the league now who has more "desire" than Kobe (besides MJ). Not gonna find too many. After he won his third ring he challenged his teammates to workout with him during the summer. Sound familiar? All Kobe does is basketball (and commercials and wife). Kobe has desire trust me.
Allen Iverson, Ben Wallace, Jason Kidd, Reggie Miller, Kenyon Martin come to mind as to players that have tremendous amounts of "desire". Of course Iverson doesn't go to practice, but during games, he lays it all on the line. I never said that Kobe didn't have desire, I simply pointed out that MJ's desire is part of what separated him from the rest of the league. Kobe does not have that same desire that made MJ legendary.
i hate the fact that kobe acts like MJ, he walks like him, speaks like him, plays like him, even chews gum like him! pretty scary, i just hate the way they're so similar, as for his game, he's still gettin better which is scary, consider him the best player behind shaq, we dont know if he can be the leader MJ was because he has shaq.......i think people hate him because they think the lakers win because of shaq and kobe and that hes not really that good, doesnt really matter, they got 3 in a row and counting...
Yikes you lost me with AI. What's your definition of desire? I mean MJ used to fly to Vegas or play 18 rounds before playoff games. Kobe doesn't do any of that, doesn't have a "posse" or hang out at clubs. Ben Wallace might have killer desire on the floor but I off the court? Who knows? "Desire" is so subjective I think it's useless to argue.
I got news for you guys: IT IS NOT A FACT THAT JORDAN IS THE BEST PLAYER EVER. Stop making statements that imply (or explicitly state, LiLStevie3) that it is. It is my opinion (a very strong opinion, mind you) that Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest ever, and I can make some really good arguments which support that sentiment without ever mentioning nebulous things such as desire. However, I never try to pass off my opinion as a fact, and neither should you. I agree with this sentiment. Your definition of desire is very vague. Playing poker all night right before games doesn't make it sound like Jordan has all the "desire" you say he does. But then again, I still have no idea of what your definition of desire is, so I'll just leave you with an excerpt from this article... Gambling Man The Thrill of the Kill Keeps Michael Jordan Chasing His Next Game By Michael Leahy Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, June 14, 2002; Page C01 ...Jordan played blackjack into the early morning hours, down half a million dollars at one point, refusing to quit, sinking deeper into the red, trying to recover his losses by succumbing to the sucker's gambit -- raising his bets and playing multiple hands simultaneously. Around 3 a.m., about the time his prospects looked the dreariest, he called for coffee to replace his drink and lit another cigar. The Jordan party -- bodyguards, teammates, his personal trainer, a few friends -- settled in for what appeared to be an all-nighter. Someone in the party whispered to Jordan that perhaps he ought to get some sleep, particularly as, in only three days, he would be in Madison Square Garden for opening night against the New York Knicks. Jordan ignored the questions, the veiled admonishments that it was getting late. When he would miss critical shots down the stretch and seem to have nothing in his tank late in the fourth quarter during a narrow loss to the Knicks, it would leave at least one Wizards official wondering what price, if any, he had paid for Casino Night. But no one ever pressed him about such things... I'll echo Anderlicht's sentiment: how about we leave such subjective things as "desire" out of the argument?
OK, it is my OPINION that MJ is the greatest player ever, an opinion that is accepted by at least 95% of the basketball fans, writers, and former players out there. And talk to any basketball writer or former player and you will find out that MJ had this insane determination to win, which is what i define desire by. I don't give a darn what MJ decides to do before games (providing he is not breaking the law or hurting the team), as long as he performs on the court. And MJ performed on the court. BTW, you have not commented on any of the points I presented previously. Please stop pointing out these little technicalities and comment on the real issue at hand. Mav3434, Anderlicht, and I have posted some very good points regarding the issue of Kobe on the Bulls, yet you have chose to ignore them and point to technicalities in my verbage.
LiLStevie3, I'm not commenting on your entire post because I don't feel like it. Really. I'm the type of guy who usually goes through and disects a guy's entire post. I've argued about Pippen & MJ, McGrady & MJ, Shaq & MJ, Shaq and Chamberlain, Chamberlain & MJ, and I've also done a Kobe & MJ before this one. There are plenty of things in your posts which I disagree with that I could make valid arguments against. But you know what? I'm just tired of doing that. I've spent hours doing those posts in recent weeks. I'm not doing it again. It's a waste of time; we're not going to change each others' minds. I just really felt I needed to respond to your passing off Jordan being the best ever as a fact. That really and truly pisses me off. The other stuff? I got more important things to do. I'm not gonna take the time on this one. Not worth it. 95% of basketball fans? I don't think so. And besides that, Jordan is a marketed icon. When ESPN did a "greatest athletes ever" feature years earlier, Jim Thorpe was ahead of Babe Ruth. The recent list (which has Jordan at the top), has Babe ahead of Jim. That's because the new list goes by hype and popularity, not regular old good judgement. If you were going by pure facts, you could argue that Babe Didrickson-Zaharus was a better all-around athlete than Jordan. But that won't happen, because your average Joe goes by hype. Jordan was also voted by fans as the greatest college player ever. Uh, what did Jordan do in college again? He hit one shot, which he wouldn't have even gotten if James Worthy hadn't stolen the ball to set up that opportunity. Worthy won that game, not Jordan. The media distorts history and makes Jordan greater than he was. You really think citing what the fans think is valid support for an argument, considering the preceding point? I don't think so. P.S. Passing off opinion as fact, whether intentional or unintentional, is certainly not a technicality. Comma splices and mispellings are technicalities.
OK, I'm not even going to get into each other's definitions of "technicality". That's just getting ridiculous. I'm sorry that you refuse to comment on the real issue at hand. I was interested in your opinion.
Drexler fan22 whats up man? Why do you hate MJ so much? He didn't win the gamw? Yes Worthy made the steal and set up the shot but Jordan didn't win the game? Come on/ Do you want me to start a thread titled "Do You Hate Jordan"? Sorry about posting MJ as the greatest player ever as a fact I just was stating it more for effect. If he isn't #1, he's numer 2 and Kobe's not anywhere near being one of the top 2 players in NBA history right now. Drexler, I respect your opinion and if you don't want to mgo over this subject again thats fine you can do what you want to do but why go on a mini tyrade about it? You don't have time/have better things to do than go over it again but you DO have time to write a two paragraph posts saying you don't have time. I don't get it. Its just a debate. mav3434 has made some great points and has really made me think about my Kobe hate and I started the thread. Just have fun with it.
