You said shaq could have won with Cuttino. Well, Eddie Jones and Cuttino's offensive numbers are remarkably similar, and Eddie Jones is a several time All-NBA defensive player, far superior to Cuttino there, giving him a slight edge IMO. You said that any decent sg could have won it with shaq. He is/was decent, even if overrated, and he didn't and kobe did. "A real all-star quality player" is pretty debatable, but if Eddie Jones is overrated, Antoine walker's picture is in the dictionary next to "overrated". That comparison really isn't fair, and it isn't as if the Celtics overran the eastern conference this year, with a mere 49 wins Check Pierce and Kobe's averages against NJ if you want, and you'll see who's better there. Plus the fact that Pierce's clutch play is erratic,, if not downright awful in his last game, like Kobe's was a couple of years ago. Pierce doesnt give you the defense and athleticism that bryant does, so when his 3ptrs aren't falling, he's not going to beat you, just ask NJ. Kobe on the other hand plays the total game. What if you put Kobe next to Grant, Pippen and Armstrong/Paxson and Cartwright? That would be a better comparison. I think that team would be pretty good, probably championship caliber, certainly better than the 49 win celtics.
Shaq's dominance helps Kobe (and every Laker player) a great deal you gotta admit that. In the 4th quarter of games (espically in the finals) Shaq was triple teamed as soon as he touched the Rock that has to give a talented player (Kobe) and edge b/c the D is now rotating to get back to their men. Were people double teaming any other member of the Bulls except Jordan? Of course not. Yes Pierce was erratic v. the Nets but do you really think a two-man game w/ Shaq and Pierce could be stopped? If Walker is overrated (maybe his, maybe he's not) doesn't that mean that the focus was on Pierce and that he would benifit from the attention placed on Shaq like Kobe does? Jones only averaged over 20 once and that was w/ the Honets. He has never had the complete offensive game Mobley has but you are right on the D. I might have to back off that comment a little even though I think Ray Allen, TMac, Pierce etc. could win w/ Shaq and I don't think Kobe could lead any of those teams past Shaq. When MJ was 23 he averaged 37ppg w/ 5reb, 2.9 stl & 1.5 blk compared (admirably I must say) to Kobe's 25, 4.5, 1.5 & 0.6. He's close to MJ but so is TMac IMHO. Maybe the Kobe of 2005 but there is now way Kobe right now could lead HoGrant, Pip, & Cartwright to the NBA title.
On an additional note; It has been fun debating this topic w/ such knowledgabe bball fans as mav3434. This has been a great debate thusfar and I look forward to many more basketball discussions w/ all you guys here on the cc.net boards. PS: Hell, I think I'm starting NOT to hate Kobe anymore. He's still not #2 though.
Comparing those mid-80's scoring numbers to today is deceptive, teams scored roughly 20-30% more than these days. I mean, Purvis Short and Tony Campbell scored 26-27 a game one season, but they were/are not as good as guys with comparable numbers today (Pierce, Bryant, McGrady, etc.). Could Kobe and the Jordan-aires have put up 30-35 PPG in the showtime mid 80's? I think so. Who else was going to shoot? Dave Corzine? Ed Nealy? Maybe Reggie theus I guess if he was on that team, but he's just another example of a moderately talented player who put up big numbers in a big numbers era. In fact, , jordan shot 48% that year jacking up 27 shots a game, and kobe shot 47% this year putting up 20 shots a game. That is beside the point that running around and scoring your ass off is not conducive to winning games. The 87 bulls and mj's 37 won as many championships as the 62 Warriors and Wilts 50.4 ppg. Zero. Kobe, by necessity due to shaq, has learned early in his career what MJ and Wilt took a while to do, that trying to score every single point for your team is not going to do it. As far as Kobe v. McGrady, if I would have one guy right now in the 4th quarter on the floor, Kobe has done it, McGrady has failed. He has talent but does not know how to win yet.
yes, it is fun. I don't really like the lakers or kobe, I used to hate him too, but I have seen the light, and am trying to convert others.
How can you compare those percentages? Jordan was the main focus of the defense, night in and night out for 82 games. Bryant is a sidekick who has the benefit of defenses collapsing on another guy on the same team! People just refuse to acknowledge this for some reason. It's saying something when you can shoot at as high of a clip as Jordan did while being the only scoring option on the team. If you want to compare Bryant to Jordan, compare Bryant to the Jordan of TODAY.
You can't compare them; different eras as I said before. I was just trying to emphasize that his 87 was not all that superhuman relative to the era he was playing in. Jordan had the benefit of outlet passes and layups and fast breaks and showtime 80's. Kobe does not. Does it even out? Maybe, maybe not, who knows. As I said, in 85 Purvis Short scored 28 a game, but was he a better player, than Kobe, Pierce, McGrady in 01 or 02? And I don't think comparing the 23 year old bryant to the 39 year old Jordan is fair to either of them.
I couldn't find 87 stats, but have a look at the 85 stats, it was the era of the G, F and GF as scorer: 1984-85 season Rank Player, team Scoring avg. 1. Bernard King, N.Y. 32.9 2. Larry Bird, Bos. 28.7 3. Michael Jordan, Chi. 28.2 4. Purvis Short, G.S. 28.0 5. Alex English, Den. 27.9 6. Dominique Wilkins,Atl. 27.4 7. Adrian Dantley, Utah 26.6 8. Mark Aguirre, Dall. 25.7 9. Moses Malone, Phila. 24.6 10. Terry Cummings, Mil. 23.6 " While most of those guys played forward back then most of them were 6-7 or below with the exception of Malone, Cummings, and Bird. And, more importantly, a lot of those guys scored their points by finishg on the break. All I am saying is that Kobe would have flourished back then too.
Koby is agreat player,with room to improve! I have liked Koby a lot ever since he was drafted, he was cool a good head on his shoulders type of guy.Now that he has made a name for himself, he has a sort of street sneer on his face,a look of distain, which turns me away from being his Fan! This IMHO means he wont be in just the same class as MJ.
This is completely off-topic, but those high percantages remind me of Adrian Dantley. Do you realize that in his 7 years with the Jazz, he averaged 29.6 points/game while shooting 56.2%? He was 6'5"! How do you do that? In fact, in 1983-84, Dantley set a record for fewest average FGs attempted while still averaging at least 30. Get this... he took a whopping... 18.2 shots a night to get those 30.6 points. That's simply amazing. The funny thing is that the Jazz haven't retired his number (because he was an @$$hole), and as far as I know, don't plan to. He hasn't made the Hall of Fame either.
The amazing thing about Dantley was that he was only listed at 6-5, while in reality he was closer to 6-3, maybe 6-4 in shoes, at forward, no less. He was awesome at getting to the free throw line.
Caution to those who say Kobe's arrogant.....you're mistaking confidence with arrogance. Also, there's nothing wrong with Kobe learning how to handle himself from Michael Jordan(which I don't think he's doing). Kobe is a very mature person who handles himself well and knows he is an elite player. Can he win without Shaq? Only time will tell.
no i dont think im mistaking confidence with arrogence with kobe. that guy is arrogent. i do respect kobes game. i think he is a good player. but i dont like his arrogance, the fact that he can punch his teammates with it BARELY getting noticed by the public (samaki walker), and also him trying to emulate jordans 'tounge' and basically jordan. some people, myself included, stick there tounge out by instinct and u dont even know that you are doing it. kobe does it after a big score. hes a fake. get ur own style man.
I think Kobe is the ultimate baller, however I do not like him. Honestly I don't know the reason. Maybe because the lakers are so good, maybe his success, but I like to think it is something about the way he carries himself, and his personality. He diefinetly cant win it all without Shaq, he showed that when Shaq got hurt this season. As far as the question who can win it all without shaq, nobody as long as Shaq's around, however I could see Duncan having the ability to win it all, just like he did in the strike season.
You must have hated Jordan then. Early in his career, he emulated parts of Dr. J's game, just as Kobe is doing with Jordan now. Please don't be too offended at this next piece, but it may convey what your post looks like to me. (1989, before Jordan won any championships): Oh I don't think I'm mistaking confidence with arrogance with Jordan. That guy is arrogant. I do respect Jordan's game. I think he is a good player. But I don't like his arrogance, the fact that he can bash his coach for no reason after losing all playoff hopes and verbally abusing a rookie with it BARELY getting noticed by the public (Doug Collins and Kwame Brown, respectively), and also him trying to emulate Erving's dunks and basically Erving. Some people, myself included, do those kind of dunks spontaneously and don't even know we're doing it. Jordan does it to look cool. He's a fake. Get your own style man. (1998): Jordan is unquestionably the best player ever. He's so much better than Erving. (2002): no i dont think im mistaking confidence with arrogence with kobe. that guy is arrogent. i do respect kobes game. i think he is a good player. but i dont like his arrogance, the fact that he can punch his teammates with it BARELY getting noticed by the public (samaki walker), and also him trying to emulate jordans 'tounge' and basically jordan. some people, myself included, stick there tounge out by instinct and u dont even know that you are doing it. kobe does it after a big score. hes a fake. get ur own style man. Oh, and Shaq is so much better than Chamberlain, too.
On a related note, Kobe will sign with Nike next year. Why people hate Kobe: He's too good too young w/ 3 rings. And hasn't done it on his team but on Shaq's. Keep in mind Kobe dropped 56 on the Griz w/o Shaq in only 3 quarters. So basically he had the highest one game scoring output this past year. Kobe tames his game down to "fit" the system. Imagine Kobe on the Hornets circa Glen Rice. He'd score 30/game easy with all those screens set for him. That being said, Kobe doesn't have the hands to be as good as MJ. Lots will disagree but having big hands is an huge commodity.
Kobe Bryant may be the most talented player in the NBA. He could probably become one of the all time greats. I like to watch him play. When I was real young, my favorite players were Walt "Clyde " Frazier of the Knicks and Earl "the Pearl" Monroe of the Bullets- later the Knicks. Kobe is much more talented than these guys were. He outshines almost every player today. His only true peers may be T-Mac, and Iverson. That being said. ...... NBC ruined Michael Jordan for me. I really enjoyed watching Jordan play -Pre 1990. He was amazing. Bob Costas, Marv Albert, Snapper Jones, Bill Walton went on ad nauseum about Jordan until I had to turn the sound down to watch a game. They really ruined something truly remarkable. Especially Bob Costas- I heard him say Michael Jordan's name over 60 times in one quarter in the Indiana series in '98. I counted 17 different adjectives used for Jordan by Costas alone in the same quarter. I feel the same thing comming for Kobe Bryant. I really enjoyed the Kings /Lakers series- it was very competitive and I wanted Sacramento to win the series. I wish they would have-It will ad more prestige to Bryant if he is given adverse conditions to overcome. For any hero- the road should be paved with adversity he overcomes through tenacity. The Bryant legacy will lose its glow if things come to easy. He is a truly gifted athlete. I hate him with every cell in my being.
Yeah, I got a little sick of him too, though I acknowledge his greatness. I found the older fadeaway shooting jordan a compelling story but not all that entertaining as a basketball player. Regarding adversity, thats probably the reason why people tend to dislike Kobe. Everything came easy for him and he had every opportunity to succeed. He came from a relatively privileged background, had a basketball playing dad, traveled the world, is seemingly intelligent, at least for a basketball player, etc., not to mention freakishly talented. That all contributed to or is reflected in his coolness towards fans, media, and complaints by teammates about him being aloof, as well as negative attitudes toward him. Now I'm starting to sound like costas so I'll shut up now.
Exactly Rocket River, another thing that people have not mentioned about Kobe's benefits from being Shaq's sidekick (other than greater % of open shots, able to play tighter defense knowing Shaq's guarding the lane, etc.) is that Kobe is able to coast through the first 3 quarters of a game and then suddenly take over in the 4th quarter. I've watched many Laker games this year, and in many games Kobe has not been too impressive in the 1st three quarters and then all of a sudden in the 4th quarter, he explodes. This was very evident in this year's Laker-King series. If Kobe had his own team, he wouldn't be able to coast nearly as much in the beginning of the game. Remains to be seen how he would respond. Kobe's defense is not better than MJ's was, maybe after retirement, but not pre-retirement. Help defense wise, I believe MJ's was much much better than Kobe's is as of right now. On the ball defense wise, Kobe has a huge advantage behind him, both literally and figuratively in Shaquille O'Neal. Kobe can play tighter defense and gamble more, knowing Shaq's behind him in the lane. Jordan never had a shotblocker or intimidator like Shaq behind him to guard the basket. Also, if Kobe was on the 90's Bulls teams instead of Jordans, he would not be a sidekick anymore. Nobody knows how Kobe would respond to defenses focused on him and designed to slow him down instead of Shaq for a entire season, not just a few games here and there. And as I said before, with him being the focus of the defense and the team leader, he wouldn't have the luxury of coasting through the first 3 quarters as frequently as he does now.
