You don't want to be doing any dubiuos thinking. If you do you will end up living in a van down by the river.
Nietzsche's criticism of Christianity was complex and multi-faceted - he'd never give a simple thumbs-up or thumbs-down on anything because he believed that method of observing and talking about the world was tragically inept. But you're correct to an extent - Nietzsche's criticism was directed more toward the way Christianity was practiced in his day - and of the types of people who were attracted to Christianity. He did have problems with 'faith' as a whole - but even admitted to having a sort of faith of his own in that he still believed that there was a 'truth' out there that could be comprehended by man (a philosopher's "faith"). (It should be noted that even this brief response is an oversimplification in the extreme). And, this is not to say that Nietzsche did not have very harsh criticisms of Christians and their religion - he certainly did, and they were object lessons in his style of thinking. And he was criticizing the historical foundations of the faith - so his criticism, in that respect, is just as relevant today as it was then. I'd suggest that any Christian secure in their faith read Nietzsche - if not solely out of historical/philosophical interest, then out of a need to know the limits of one's faith, or even if one has such limits (I feel an almost constant need to subject the things I believe to scrutiny, and also to scrutinize those "unthinkable" reactions that usually sit, unquestioned, behind the everyday - but I guess most people don't): Again, I should point out - this does not represent Nietzsche's thought in any sense other than an aesthetic sense.
Yes, I believe in prayer, and I’m in very substantial agreement with Max’s position. I have read a little bit of Nietzsche, but it was a while ago. I believe he’s seen as one of the early post-modern type thinkers who sought to question all the long standing beliefs of his society, which is fair enough, but if that’s where you stop then what have you done? I think that process should be carried through, or at least it’s more interesting and much more useful to carry it through and to begin exploring what you do believe to be true based on your perceptions and understandings, which I'm differentiating from simply believing what you've been told to believe.
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From a book I'm reading: "We seem to feel better when we pray. Prayer "works" to calm the spirit, soothe the soul. Prayer renews us for the task at hand. It's therapeutic to pray... Just saying "Help!" helps. Prayer does not rearrange the universe to our liking. Cemetaries are filled with people for whom prayer did not work... The fact that prayer will not rearrange the external world to suit our liking will not stop us from praying. We pray because we cannot help it. We cannot not pray except, perhaps, by thinking exclusively about not doing it, and that becomes prayer-like in its own, ironic way... And to those who say they do not pray, I say they don't understand prayer as the opening of the spirit, of the self to that which is beyond us, to that which is more than we are, to that which has been called, among other things, God. Prayer is simply casting ourselves into the presence of God, into the mystery of God, into the Wonder of God... Prayer is communion not communicaton. And it is communion grounded upon, rooted in, consciousness, awareness, compassion, and imagination. There is no prayer without consciousness, awareness, comparssion and imagination. And with consciousness, awareness, compassion and imagination, there is nothing but prayer. Only those who are dead, literally or figuratively, do not pray. We are built for prayer, for seeking help, companionship, connection, communion with whatever we envision as being beyond us, yet capable of helping us... There are at least six spontaneous "prayers of the heart" which we find ourselves praying without meaning to, intending, or thinking about it. "Help!" "Thank You!" "I'm sorry!" "Wow!" "I love you!" "Be with me/us!"... Prayer is not a weapon we wield in "subduing the earth," or controlling any aspect of life on the earth. Prayer is comfort for the soul... So prayer is a litmus test for our spiritual health... It is a contradiction in terms to consider ourselves spiritual if we don't pray. It's like a fish claiming to be a fish without swimming. We pray like a fish swims. It is what we do." From the book "The Evolution of the Idea of God" by Jim Dollar
How do unborn children choose this? At what point do you make the choice? If it is a choice rather than a flaw, then why do 100 percent of people make it?
I know of only one who has chosen to put God's will ahead of his own. We're just selfish. My point is that God loves us anyway. That He doesn't see us as bad or evil, as was said earlier in the thread. At least that's not how he's presented through the eyes of Christ.
thanks for saying that. the concept of mysticism came up the in a book i was reading recently. christians are absolutely mystics. if you believe in the trinity, you're a mystic. if you pray with expectation...even if the expectation isn't to have your prayer answered as you asked...you're a mystic. i completely agree. the church in america has lost touch with this. they've substituted the mystery of God for business-like process. step 1: check. step 2: check. As best I can tell, God doesn't work that way.
Also, part of being a mystic is knowing that you can never fully comprehend what it is you believe in, I think. It should humble you... That's another problem many christians here have. They speak with unwarranted authority...
I don't mean to offend anyone I'm just answering the question but I don't believe in prayer. Like Dr. Phil once said, if you are stranded on a row boat in the ocean and a big storm comes, you can pray all you want but you had better start paddling for that shore.
I think that's true of people from all faith traditions. You just have the majority of people in this country identifying themselves as Christian because they go to church 3x a year. I agree with you...there are concepts I can't fully comprehend. Concepts I can't prove up with a formula...and yet, I believe them. It's nearly impossible for me to explain why, but they resonate as true with me. The problem isn't that I speak with unwarranted authority...not from my perception, anyway. When I speak of God it's from my own experience...or the experience of those who are close to me...or from what I know of Him from scripture. I see authority in all of that. I recognize others might not.
maybe you should start a separate thread on original sin. that's kinda off-topic. the only allusion to it came when someone quoted Nietzche to suggest that Christians see the world as bad or evil. i think the Bible is pretty clear that Christians are not to see the world as bad or evil. assuming definition of "world" is creation. there's a lot of tension in Christian thought between what is choice and what isn't. i haven't fully reconciled it in my own mind, but as for me it's a moot point anyway...because i know i've chosen to serve myself far more than i ever chose to serve anyone else.
I'm sorry. I wasnt talking about you. I was referring to people who speak of religion, their religion, in absolutes. I should have also included atheists, as well. It bothers me when someone believes they fully understand God, or worse, can speak for Him.
I didn't get that you were talking about me, personally. No need to apologize. I feel like I have some grasps of what God is...but there's no way I could fully comprehend Him.
i brought him up as an addendum to Dubious' post. i don't see how it is off-topic at all. let me ask you this, if someone prays because they think or fear they ought to rather than because they truly believe that they will be heard, will they be heard?
