Also, people keep saying we took a great Dallas team to the brink 2 years ago.....I think that year set us back. We had em. 2-0 coming home. Then a rookie coach schooled him. They went small on us, and we did nothing to counter. That was the year we should've made a statement. We had as much talent as Dallas, and we had 'it' that year......Those type of role players at every position dont come very often.......I'll never forgive JVG for that year. Unless we win a championship this year
Where is the long list of players he FAILED to develop? Meaning, players who did nothing under JVG, but went on to find propserity as soon as they left. Also, Head and Hayes were needed last year... but why are they still playing this year? Not only that, why are they both playing more minutes this year? Why is JLIII playing at all? (he wasn't forced to play last year). Also, as early as last year... people were claiming Yao was being developed the wrong way, and that he should be utilizing a Brad Miller-like role... now that he finally "got it", and is dominating, people give JVG zero credit for sticking to his vision of having Yao solely in the low-post.
By 'it' do you mean Clarence Weatherspoon, Scott Padgett, Bob Sura, Jon Barry, and Ryan Bowen? I look at those guys and I also shake my head at how we didn't beat a team with Josh Howard, Terry, Nowitski, Stackhouse, and Marquis Daniels. We had the same talent! But seriously... Marquis Daniels would have been contending with Mike James as the 6th man on our team... yet he barely could crack the Dallas rotation. It wasn't because of Yao and T-mac... they did everything they could.
The difference was that our roster lats year was constructed with the assumption that the two stars would be healthy. When they got injured, we didn't have nearly the depth, versatility, and talent elsewhere to even tread water and be respectable. David Wesley regressed big time, Jon Barry was out all year, and Stromile and Anderson completely bombed. You can't pin those things on the coach. We had to patch up the roster with D-leaguers and castaways from other teams. That isn't in any way comparable to those other teams you mentioned.
I don't know if JVG is responsible for scouting. He is too busy watching game tapes and preparing for the next one. I'm sure he wants to get certain players, but Rox don't have the resources to get it done. Keep in mind: The players JVG traded for were basicly all contributors when they were healthy. But who else besides Yao was worth to develop before this year? The closest one might be Boki, and he still isn't quite developed after getting major minutes in NO, some minutes in NJ. Also keep in mind: Head was getting minutes even when Yao and Tmac were healthy last year in the middle of the season. Yes. That could be good or bad, depending on what kind of players he got. He needs his type of players, like you mentioned. I agree with you to a certain degree. Most of the time this season, Rox came out after halftime and made a run. I think that's adjusting. It's a different story at the end of the game though.
I do believe he is capable with a healthy roster, but I believe there is a coach more suited to our team and he is already assistant coaching a very good team. (sometimes looking more like the head coach than the actual head coach) Two words: Del Harris.
Did Mavs have a T-Mac playing at MVP level at that year? Did Mavs have Yao Ming who was the second best center at that time? Weren't those players (Spoon, Padgett, Sura, Bowen and Jon Barry) acquired by JVG? Weren't those JVG type players? Didn't you hear JVG praise Ryan Bowen and considered him as one of the two model players of the Rox team? Didn't you forget JVG was so crazy about his old knicks, for a certain period of time, that he even picked up some players that were already out of league (stickland, etc.). He basically had all players he wanted and now you are say ing the players he picked sucked so it was not his fault? Based on your logic, JVG should get his extension already. How Rox will perform this year doesn't matter because a team featuring John Lucas III, VSpan, Novak, J Howard, Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes certainly can't beat a team with Josh Howard, Terry, Nowitski, Stackhouse and Devin Harris. Let's give JVG another five years and rebuld the team.
What I mean by thinking outside the box is more a matter of adjustments.....if plan A is not working....JVG doesn't seem to have a plan B can you really sit there and proclaim that JVG has no plan B? a NBA coach that has a very respectable record has no plan B? Im sorry, but thats just flat out ridiculous. People talk about how JVG doesnt change or he cannot adjust. Correct me if im wrong but he's been adjusting for 4 years (francis era, tmac era, now the yao era since he's become a legit dominant force...and lets not even get into the injuries). so what is it people are talking about when they say he doesnt change? b/c he wants tough defense? he wants to limit turnovers? he likes the pick and roll (most coaches do)...i dont get it...enlighten me
Nick, You don't literally say player's development is simply responsible to the players themselves, but any sensible reading through your lines will conclude something similar to that of my conclusion, even though I must admit, I was rather extreme in this instance. Now I have drawn somewhat randomly a list of player's who is currently enjoying rather "productive" season (at least statistically) who have not been selected in the first-round: Fabricio Oberto Bruce Bowen Ginobili Redd Mo Williams Korver Jackson Boozer Okur Bell Walton S.Parker Arenas Zaza Pachulia Udonis Haslem Reggie Evans Cat This excludes a large number of late 1st rounders that is plying trade in this league, so anything else a more detailed and systematic analysis would likely to reflect a rather favourable probability of a so and so prospect making a career in NBA. Now, to be fair, I should have added criterion on how long these players been productive for, as there are many cases of players enjoying a couple of good year and fall into oblivion once they get rewarded with fat contracts that guarantee their financial security. However, since such info arent readily available, and I do not waste my time in reconstructing it myself, I shall presume the list above pretty much surface for the point of argument I want to make in this post. The point is, Jeff Van Gundy, simply has a bad record of developing a good youngsters, and that goes beyond with late first-rounder he had to work with or the immediate pressure of winning. There is no excuse. Yes, I do agree with you on the fact that Van Gundy's bad track record in regards to youngsters is largely due to his obsession to win immediately. But that should be considered a problem in itself, and not a reason to excuse Van Gundy from his track record. All teams, especially in this age of salary cap, have to balance the need of short-term winning with long-term future. No fans will want to mortgage their team's future for the prospect of winning immediately. And if anything else, salary cap, puts huge amount of premium on being savvy. It rewards team who exerts good value judgment on the management, because you just cant go out there and buy best talents available. The biggest difference between New York under Van Gundy and Isiah is not, Van Gundy is a superior coach (though it makes a large difference in itself), but rather general inflexibility with the roster. Now, if I remember, correctly JVG brought Allan Houston, Larry Johnson, Chris Childs with albatross contract in his first year in charge. Record wise he had a good year, but my point is he achieved such results at the expense of huge costs. I do not want to talk about coaching - JVG despite his mistakes knows hell of lot about in between game preparation, dealing with NBA players - then I do, and it would pompous of me to give certain tips on how to run the team. But what I am concerned about is his lack of track record whereby he has demonstrated a astute judgement regarding some personnel issue. This leads me to the definition of Championship calibre coach. I agree with you Nick, and Durvasa, in that it is pretty much meaningless to confine championship coach to those who "win one". That is largely due to the fact that any championship is a combination of (1) players, (2) coaching, and (3) luck. And given so small sample size, it is just about impossible to discern how each factors have played in each coaches success. Moreover, the "fit" between a coach and his team also matters a great deal, and there may not even be possible to speak of "the best" coach in a universal manner. But given the presence of salary cap, personally I think the league rewards great deal to those who are willing to take risks, and who can discern a talent or two for a cheap rookie contracts. Suns, and Spurs are two classical teams that have taken advantage of current league format IMO. I know CD puts in a lot of input in terms of personnel decisions, but I cant imagine JVG not being involved in the process. And Rockets have been extremely bad at adjusting to the new environment, given the fact that our management gave out contracts to likes of Oakley, Ward, Strickland, Marc Jackson, all those ex Knicks. Sorry, but you just cant give roster space to those valuable roster spots to "past the sell-out day" stars. This is where my criticism on JVG comes in. He just havent been willing to take those risks and some ingenuity in running the team. I think Durvasa has gone a long way to show his record on "managing in a given situation". I'll take that argument. So in a limited sense I do believe your argument is valid Nick. But I just do not believe that there are "sufficient" enough for the Rockets to win the Championship - and this is where JVG fail IMO. I hope the current Rockets team will prove me wrong later this year, but ultimately I believe this team doesnt have the depth to battle out Mavs, Suns or the Spurs (Though I think we will beat Spurs on a best of 7 series, probably not the Mavs). No matter how good with X and Os, you are, they are simply not sufficient substitute for a good talent. Obviously, nobody has all the desirable traits - since that will be omnipotent - but the trade-off doesnt seem to favourable at this moment in time for JVG.
You forgot Chuck Hayes and Rafer Alston. You don't remember correctly as he was not the GM at the time - that was Dave Checketts & Ernie Grunfeld who handled such duties throughout the 1990's. If you think JVG (in 1996, an interim head coach who nobody had heard of) was running the personnel moves back then - you're mistaken. Checketts and Grunfeld were not exactly hands off - that's one of the reasons why Riley left and became Coach/GM of the Heat. Also it's one of the reasons why Don Nelson only lasted a 60 games as Knicks coach - he and Dave and Ernie didn't agree on personnel moves.
I feel most people on this list were "draft mistakes" instead of "developed players". JVG would player guys like Boozer over Chuck Hayes from day one if he had the chance.
How many young and promising players has he acquired for development? Ironically, the most glaring "miss" he had was none but our own Chuck Hayes. Hayes was dumped. Even after we got him back, he wasn't played very much even though Juwan didn't play well. Head and Hayes play this year because they have proven themselves last year. Lucas is playing because, well, who else can play PG other than Rafer? JVG is unwilling to play Head too much at PG. Besides, with Wells and Snyder out, we need Head at SG. So we have 2 rookies backing up the PG spot. What else can JVG do than playing the rookies? Ironically, this is the biggest gripe even with some JVG supporters. Why is Rafer played so much? Whether Yao was developed in the right way was debatable. JVG turned out to be right in his "stubbornness" in this case. I give credit to him. There is still room for discussion whether Yao should be used more in high pnr with TMac.
Yes I understand the list is not complete. But I do think it is sufficient to show that in contrast to general perception "you cant do anything with those late-first rounders", there are strong reason to suspect that with good judgement you can valuable pieces to puzzle. Being a second rounder or not drafted at all, those players could have been had by the Rockets. In terms of how much input coaches, and GM make in regards to personnel decision, I do not know. I do acknowledge GM should bear large brunt of failures in this respect. Nonetheless, I dont think coach should get a free pass, especially if you have been in the league as long as Van Gundy. Beside, considering how willing Rockets been willing to doll out contracts with those ex-Knicks, not to forget Battier - Gay trade which has JVG written all over it (I like the trade though), and factor in JVG's personality, I cant believe he doesnt have a say in these decision making process.
And by every single other NBA team that passed on them. the point? Is it that the Rox hate second round picks? then why do they have two in the starting lineup? Uhh, he was a head coach for all of 23 regular season games when Grunfeld and Checketts signed Houston & Childs & Johnson (who became the backbone of an EC championship team after they traded for Sprewell) and he was following up two HOF coaches who were frustrated with their inability to have input in Dave & Ernie's personnel moves in Nelson and Riley. I'd say his input was limited at best. Furthermore, those moves lead to some pretty successful teams that JVG won with. I don't understand why you're trying to pin them on him considering: 1. The moves were not a total failure as Knicks were relatively successful with those players; and 2. He had little or nothing to do with them. PS, since we're on the larger topic of coaches wiinning championships then why are the coaches renowned at rebuilding teams and "developing young players" like Bill Fitch and Don Nelson vastly less successful at winning championships than Pat Riley and Phil Jackson? Those guys relied almost exclusively on veterans. In fact, the coaches that are most cited as being hired to "develop young players" are former college coaches who ahve experience with young players. So that would be gusy like Tim Floyd, Rick Pitino, John Calipari, Jim O'Brien, Jerry Tarkanian etc - these guys were almost all resounding failures in the NBA
Although I agree with some of your points, I don't think it's fair to blame JVG for the team's lack of depth. Ever since that Eddie Griffin trade(the league doesn't always reward risk as you mentioned, I believe), depth was always a problem for Rockets. After the Tmac trade(was that a risk taken by JVG?), depth is completely gone.
Definitely one of the longest I've read. However, I'm coming down on the side of durvasa/nick/choujie. I wonder if people would be singing a different tune if our small lineup of Head/JLIII/Hayes/Padgett/Novak had completed that 27 pt comeback on the Lakers. And to Hiroshikun, I'd consider playing an undersized, albeit ultra-aggressive, 6-6 pf is showing a bit of ingenuity (or thinking outside of the box, as DD put it). Not D'Antoni/Nelson levels, but showing signs of something approximating it.
With the talent of Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming - we can win a championship! As for Van Gundy- I respectfully offer that he can coach this team to a championship with the right talent-which he has when healthy. Even a monkey can fall out of a tree.....
I wonder if anyone even realizes anymore that if it wasn't for Juwan Howard going down with a heart ailment before the 2005 playoffs, we would've beaten the Mavericks, and IMO, we would beat the Suns too. We had the "road-court" advantage. That year, we beat the Suns in the regular season twice (with a healthy Amare), with both wins @ PHX. We matched up well with them. I'm not sure about beating the Spurs, but you never know. Luck also played a role in this. The fact that we had to play the Mavs in the first round was a joke considering that record wise, the Mavs were not a #4 seed. Would people on this board (about a third) feel this way about JVG if we made it to the Western Conference Finals just two years ago with a brand new team? The front office (including JVG) put together one heck of a basketball team that year, but unfortunately, Howard's absence was just too much of a blow to beat a much more talented Mavs team. The fact that we took that Mavs team (that went to the Finals the very next year) to 7 games shows how great that team gelled.
