Because that is what faith is. You believe in something even though it can't be rationally or empiracally proven. We don't. We choose not to believe that. While you might never see 2 hydrogen atoms in a water molecule, in fact you can never see them because of the Heisenberg Principle, there are empiracal test to prove that they are there. You might take it on faith without doing the tests yourself but that's a not quite faith since in a highschool science lab you could empiracally prove it. The faith in believing in God is a matter of faith since God can never be empiracally proven or disproven. I've said this before and will keep on saying it whenever these type of discussions come up, Religion and science are different and it is fruitless to try to justify one with the means of another. The feeling I get out of these type of discussions is that religious people often use their religion to justify or disprove science such as in the Evolution vs. Intelligent Design debates. At the same time though you often see people trying to use science to challenge religion. Its fruitless to ask someone who believes in God to prove God rationally or empiracally to someone who doesn't since as an earlier poster point out God isn't rational. God is something beyond rationality.
I have to agree with Pizza, here. I don't think your discription of a spiritual event is silly at all. What I do find just a little silly is the notion that those events can actually be a source of knowledge that your God exists. And you set the bar pretty high in your previous posts when you said you don't even think there is a possibility that your God doesn't exist. Considering that, why did your spiritual experience lead you to beleive in YHWH and not Zeus?
well speak for yourself. but then you are just trusting a test, which of course could be wrong..but thats beside the point
well that opens a whole new can of worms, because I am Catholic, and I believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, and the Son of God, and therefore not in Zeus one question, what if you were walking outside one day and all of a sudden a voice boomed from out of the sky (and you know you're alone with no chance of somebody talking into a bullhorn or something), and said, "ShakeYoHipsYao, why do you not believe in me?". Would you then believe in God? Anyway the point is that such an event can give one knowledge of His existence. (The story was just an example, dont take it literally) also, you said you agree with Pizza, but again I say that experiences for other religions are just as valid as mine or any other Christian's, there is no disagreement between Pizza and I there
For thousands of years, there were people who believed in Zeus, or Baal, or 'the spirits' and many of them were just as sure as you are that they had direct experiential evidence. I don't think it is unreasonable to say that not all of the people were right. Why are you better at 'knowing divine revelation' than all of them? The point, really, is that human experience is not reliable from moment to moment and you are a human being just like any of the untold other billions who have lived and believed in many different things on the basis of 'direct experience' of the divine. This does not in any way bear particularly on your beliefs; it is just a suggestion that you should be a little more circumspect in analyzing the absoluteness of your experience.
oh man, for the third time I say MY EXPERIENCES ARE NOT MORE VALID THAN ANYBODY ELSES, I AM NOT ABOVE ANYONE.
how dare you question bchapman101's circumspection into the absoluteness of his experience. you are a b*stard.
There's no way to prove God exists. I believe in a loving God, however. He's too active in my life to be merely a figment of my imagination. I used to think my emotions dictated my knowledge that God existed, but it's definitely a more powerful force than human emotion. Plus, believe me...my imagination is NOT that good.
I don't think you're crazy, but people have died for abstract ideals (with all due respect) other than religion. Here's another interesting question. Is it easier to believe your past loved ones are truly gone or that their essence exists in a place outside your heart and memories?
Let me throw this at you and see how you feel ... It's ok for you to believe that God gave you your life, do you have to insist that he gave me my life and then demand respect and other things? How do you feel about me claiming I gave you that car you are driving and ask you for retribution?
That is really not what I am trying to say. In no way am I talking about anybody being better than anybody else or more important. I'm more speaking in terms of history and statistics. Let me try again. Would it be reasonable to say that we both agree that all the Aztec who fervently ripped the hearts out of victims for Huitzilopochtli were probably misguided in their belief that a war god rules the universe and had contacted them demanding human sacrifice? For argument I will assume you agree. Following this, do you think that they were somehow making things up or would you say that they had moments that they believed in their gods and thought they had direct divine moments? From where I am sitting, I think that they really believed that they had moments of gnosis via contact with real and tangible gods. They weren't all play-acting. Assuming we can again agree, then, that some people have had 'experiences with the divine' which were false, how do you decide that your experiences are dependable? Because it seems without more explanation, you are basically saying 1 billion times in the past people have been wrong, but this is the time it really was contact with God. It's like awakening one morning before sunrise and expecting the sun to rise in the east. Do you understand what I'm getting at? There is a guy in Canada who can, with some heavy duty magnets and laboratory conditions induce feelings that you are in the presence of God. I believe that reducing belief to one or two experiential moments of revelation is the religious equivalent of being attracted to a beautiful girl (hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say and that doesn't sound too sacrilegious).
i think the opposite is also true. when the opposite of a miracle happens to people, for instance, suffering/injustice that is unfair, excrutiating, and enduring, whether it be psychological, physical, emotional, or any combo thereof, people tend to doubt the existence of a divine, benevolent creator. if a victim of child molestation didn't believe in god (why would god let uncle so-and-so do that to me?), i wouldn't blame them at all. interesting thread.
speaking of miracles: <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iB_tjpPVfC4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iB_tjpPVfC4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
Yes, it is easier to believe their soul lives on. I won't deny that. I want to say so much more, but I think I am just running around in circles. It would be nice if we all could do this face-to-face.
demand respect? Nobody is demanding anything, and if somebody taught you at some point that God demands things, well you were misinformed. I suppose my original reply to your post may have looked like an attack. I was just very bothered by your words. Forgive me if I came off harsh.
You are well spoken. You give good examples. It seems like I have having a discussion with my alter ego. Now, to answer your question I would have to begin a new subject, a very deep one. I am afraid it would seem rather ridiculous to almost everybody here, but it would explain much of what you ask. But, I will try to sum it all up like this: Anyone, I mean anybody who ever lived, no matter what religion, could have had a Divine experience and were motivated to do good afterwards. HOWEVER, those who had experiences that were just as real, but were motivated to do evil afterwards, well, that is what makes all the ugly things happen in this world. Evil is everywhere, and it is relentless. It comes after everyone, and those who fall to it, for example, a king or ruler if you will, can start terrible practices, and spread horrible acts. I know this post has moved onto another step, and may seem completely ludicrous to you and many others. Maybe we should just agree to disagree, fair enough?
Being much older than most of you, but not nearly as old as Dr of Dunk, I'm missing several loved ones and a couple of close friends. I've always thought that people live on as long as they are remembered. My father, for example, lives on in my children's memories because of the stories I tell about him, true stories about a remarkable man. The photos are nice, but they don't go the the living essence. They never met him, but they will know as much as I can tell them of his life, and it's impact on so many. D&D. Life is what we make of it.
I believe in God. My faith makes tragedy manageable. I do not respect extremists. I am not a zealot or pushy with my opinion or belief. I cannot make a convincing argument for the existence of God. I cannot begin to understand or give argument for God's "attributes". Faith holds it together for me. I'm not sure about the heaven or hell part. I'm sorry - that mean spirited stuff about not getting into heaven unless you fully accept certain things really puts me off. It breeds thoughts or Exclusivity in who gets into heaven. I mean no disrespect to anyone. I just cannot accept the mean spirited message that we all die and suffer eternally unless we follow a certain path. I am not going to play with this exclusivity. I can believe in God or a higher power and be indifferent to the notion of heaven or hell.... Sorry - I am really very tolerant of other people's beliefs until they get really mean and didactic with it.
