By the way, I would like to politely request sinohero to remove my quote from his sig, or at least my name. That one sentence was excepted from a post that overall was pretty balanced. I said it pretty early in the war, before reading more conflicting reports. Batman is right, it doesn't serve conversation to catagorically generalize people because of a position they hold or something they protest or support. I don't refute any of my past posts- but that sentece, sitting there by itelf, gives a right-leaning impression of me that I find a tad embarrassing. sinohero- you have the right to have whatever sig you want, but I'm just politely asking here.
"Ordinary" Iraqis? Ordinary Kurdish Iraqis are probably tickled ping that we're there. Ordinary Shiites are, on the whole, probably happy that we're there, although there must be a huge amount of anxiety over what the future holds (considering that we abandoned them before). Ordinary Sunnis are probably split, although less favorable towards us, since we are going to break their monopoly on power. Practically everyone not a part of the regime will be happy to see Saddam gone. Most of it will depend on how quickly the Iraqi people obtain self-rule after the war.
Ask them in 10 years when they have an established democracy, and their standard of living has improved greatly. DD
Ask them in 10 years when they have an established democracy, and their standard of living has improved greatly. Actually the US will be hard pressed to increase their standard of living to what it was before Gulf War I in 10 years. Iraq was fairly developed then. It will probably have more freedom and perhaps democracy by then. Even the democracy is debatable because will the US allow them to elect a leader who is hostile to say Israel and the US itself. Unfortunately history, that troublesome concept, has a number of examples that tend to go against the optimism of the pro war crowd. After the 6 day War Moshe Dayan had a very similar hope that the Palestininas would appreciate their increased standard of living and become Israelis. It turned out that they wanted to rule themselves, even if not that well, or without that high of standard of living. It is common for people to want to do things their way. Another example from the Mideast is the invasion of Lebanon by the Israelis. Initially they were viewed as liberators and showered with rice (a better reception than it looks like we'll be getting). the Lebanese were happy to have the hold of the PLO over parts of their country broken. However, given the politics of the situation the Isarelis left being reatly hated approx. 18 years later. The Isarelis were sucked into the unstable situation and in order to occupy and attempt to restore order they had to set up the type of situation they have in the West Bank with checkpoints and searches and detentions. They had to do this with friend and foe alike to protect themselves and they left with everyone hating them. THIS IS VERY PREDICTABLE WITH THE AMERICAN OCCUPATION OF IRAQ. Israel in Lebanon
I thought I had read an article similar to this with everyone giving the thumbs up. But then the author pointed out the a thumbs up was not very nice in their language, kind of lack a middle finger. Hopefully in this case the "Mister, mister, England good" means that the thumbs up wasn't meant to be disrespectful.
Here's a report from a Turkish newspaper. Who knows if it is acurate. Of course who knows if the unformly rosy picture from the US is accurate either. ********************************* Without Support of the Shiites, US War Plans Fail Istanbul, TURKEY, April 01, 2003 - USA faces a new surprise each day in the Iraq war. The White House assumptions such as 'The Shiites in Iraq will move with us' have been crushed down as the Shiite population in Iraq supported Saddam Hussein. It is stated that 'America is face to face with a great dead end' when Ali Hammadi el Namani killing 4 American soldiers by a suicide attack in the Shiite holy city Najaf (Necef) is revealed to be of Shiite origin. According to the NTVMSNBC news on the internet, the war in Iraq achieved 'a first experience in Islamic history' that the Shiites* and the Sunnites* have prayed together at the tomb of Musa Al Kazim, one of the grandsons of Caliph Ali, in the Kazimiya district of Baghdad. Leading names of the Shiites in exile issued a statement yesterday referring to US. The Opposition condemned the attacks on Iraq and commented, 'This is a war against Islam.' The Chief of General Staff of USA General Richard Myers in his speech the previous day had stated that he had hoped the Shiites would help them in determining the targets in Baghdad with certainty. But declarations come from the Shia leaders one by one advising not to give any aid to the coalition forces. Ayetullah Huseyin Ali Muntazeri, one of the leading opposition religious men in Iran claimed that those who co-operate with USA and UK in Iraq would commit a sin. A statement issued in writing on behalf of Muntazeri noted : "The war in Iraq is not between the right and the wrong, or the cruel and the oppressed, but between the cruel and the cruel, and the wrong and the wrong," it is stated that any kind of co-operation with the USA and UK would mean a sin. Muntazeri, who was considered to take place of Khomaini for sure, had lost his prestige when he had criticized the government in a harsh way, a couple of months prior to the death of Khomaini. Muntazeri, who was kept under supervision in his house in Kum for 5 years, was released on January 30. Editor's Note: Shiites* and the Sunnites* are the two sects of Islam. The Sunnites are characterized by orthodox practice and acceptance of the first four caliphs as legitimate successors to Mohammed. The Siites, are the followers of Ali, son-in-law of Mohammed, who hold that Mohammed had appointed Ali as his successor. After Ali's assassination, they split from their fellow Muslims, the Sunnites, to create the Shia sect. http://www.zaman.org/default.php?kn=1418
I suspect that many of the parents of the half a million children, whose deaths were directly attributed to the US/UK sponsered enconomic sanctions, are very happy to have the US/UK soldiers in their gun sights.
Ask them in 10 years when they have an established democracy, and their standard of living has improved greatly. Of course if someone in the Bush Admin decides to rebuild Iraq "on the cheap" ...
Well guess what boys...we can sit on our collective A$$es and let the hatred grow and the sanctions worsen, or we can do what we are doing now, and turn their perception around. Glynch, Your take on Lebanon is not even remotly related to the current situation with the USA and Iraq. The fact that Iraq has the natural resources that will allow the rebuilding to happen at an accelerated rate is totally ignored in the Lebanon comparison. The US NEEDS a real Arab ally in the region, and this is a play for democracy to spread across the entire middle east. These countries are clinging to backwards ideals and are in the dark as far as world affairs go, that was ok when it was stable for the rest of the world, but when they started spreading their hatred through bombing and terrorism it became time to take a stand. History will tell, and I believe that Iraq will be another Japan or Germany. DD
Oh, Mango?!?! Input please. This has been shot down before. Nice try to slip it through though. <b>NoWorries</b>: "Of course if someone in the Bush Admin decides to rebuild Iraq "on the cheap" ... NoWorries, you are such an optimist!
The results of democracy in Iraq may be very predictable. The majority of Iraqis are Shiites. A Shiite lead Iraq will likely not be pro-USA. I wonder if GWB has even had this thought pop into his head.
No Worries, Come on man, you are seriously reaching here. I am sure there is a plan to have a democratically elected government in Iraq, and they will not be allowed to have a military, so we will have a massive base in Iraq to protect them. A lot like Germany is now. DD
Look at Iran, where a pretty sizable majority of the people want democracy & more engagement with the US. There are several good reasons why an eventual democratically elected government may not have a favorable view of the US, but to say that their religious sect predetermines their worldview is a tad simplistic.
I find great humor in you suggesting that I look an axis of evil country Politics in demacracies can get very interesting. The ones who are the most politiclly active tend to be the ones who are on the extremes. I can easily see fundamentalist Shiites controlling Iraq's democracy, from time to time. A fundamentalist Shiite lead Iraq will no doubt be anti-USA. There is also an Israel angle to this. In the near future, I can never see an Iraq democracy not being anti-Israel. Given that, maybe the best we could wish for is an Iraq democracy that is USA nuetral.
Montel, Yep, and they have been seeing that for all 30 years that Saddam has been in power. Once he is gone, they will see much better things. DD
Let's see, the US has caused the deaths of half a million Iraqi children, so the Iraqis will hate us. That would be correct if the Iraqis didn't realize that the sanctions were in place solely because of Saddam Hussein's actions - a fact that is nopt lost on them (although apparently it is on No Worries). Then, they will hate us because we will rebuild Iraq "on the cheap". Curious what that means, since their own oil assets will pay for most of the rebuilding... Then when those don't work, they will hate us because they're Shiites. Never mind that as BT pointed out, many shiites actually have a somewhat favorable view of the US, or that as the most repressed community inside Iraq they are probably the most grateful for being liberated... I'm beginning to think that No Worries just won't be happy unless everyone else hates the US as much as he does.
Oh, and now it's fundamentalist Shiites who will get elected and hate us. Never mind that Iraq - including the shiite populations - is without a doubt the most secular nation in the Middle east. Sh*t, somebody's gotta hate us... Or at the worst, be neutral towards us. How dare somebody actually like us!!!
