It is true that there is a certain amount of out and out fraud that goes on with Welfare too. It does have an impact. The but the good it does is greater than the harm IMO I do agree that the higher the taxes the less money you will keep. And if you earned the same amount of money in a country that taxed less you would hold onto more. That's a given. Perhaps I misunderstood. The only point I was making is that under socialism just like in capitalism, the more money you earn the more money you keep at the end of the day. Keeping more money, I believe is an incentive for many people.
Why is noone responding to this? I think it´s the most important part of all the ranting I did. All that ranting made me hungry. I´m gonna have some cheese and spinadge pie with tomatoes and sour cream. And to respond to whoever it was said it: Yes! Swedish chicks are hot.
But do you not think that there are varying *degrees* of this incentive? I'll work harder for $2 than I will for $1. In both cases, the goal is to earn more money than I currently have. In one case, I work harder because the reward is higher. People wouldn't eat roaches on Fear Factor for fifty cents.
What is social security like in the states? Do you have free quality health care? What about education. Are university educations free and open for all who have graduated from high school? What about even elemenatry and high schools? What about day care for children?
If you are talking fear factor stuff I'll do grosser things if I get more money. The economy is different. If I'm going to be paid, I will want to get paid the most I can. It doesn't matter or doesn't matter to a large degree that much of what I have will be taxed either way. I'm still going to want to have the most money I can for a job.
But "the most" changes with different levels of taxation. Bottom line is this, you work harder for better rewards. You yourself stated this with your fear factor reference. What is important is the quality of the reward, not simply the fact that there is a reward.
No, I have never been to the US. Have you ever been outside of the US? Give me a brake! The US does not do a ton to take care of its own (unless you´re talking about the rich and the corporations). Maybe compared to Chad. I read a book recently: "Nickel and dimed, On (not) getting by in America" by Barbara Ehrenreich (2001). Not that it´s my only source of information, but it´s a good book. Read it!
My question to you is why is that the responsibility of the govt. to pay for? Why can't people pay for their own health care, day care, college and retirement? I know you must think that you're getting a free ride, which you are. But what about the rich who have to pay more than half of their earnings to the govt. so you can have your stupid "free" ride on everything? I think socialism reaches the point where the high achievers who make the big money (that evil top 1% the liberals in this country hate so much even though most of them are among that group) will have no motivation for investing and working hard at building their businesses. Why should they work their asses off 80 hours a week if the govt. is going to step in and take a huge chunk? Eventually they will flee the country and then who will pay the bills? Then what happens to your socialized medicine when the 1% of the population who make all the money leave your country to escape confiscatory taxes? Lastly, I think that this sort of thing is nothing more than theft via the govt. I don't go and beat you up to rob you of the money to put my kids through school. What's the difference between that and me getting the govt to steal from you to pay for something I should be paying on my own?
Well if you think like that, waht is the responsibility of the gov? I would say the responsibility of the gov is to try and create the best solution for all its citizens. Why can´t people pay for themselves? Because most of them don´t have enough money to!!!!! Poor people (and there are to many of those) can barely put food on the table, if that. How are they supposed to get the money for health care or education?? The really rich peoples situation.. hmmm.. Well you beat me there. If they have no empathy and only want what´s best for themselves, you´re right. About my free ride. We don´t have all the things that I listed in Sweden either. At least none of them fully, or totally free (except for the unis). We have them all to different degrees. One very important thing among important things that I would like to stress right now is free higher education. If only the wealthy can afford to put their children through school it´s a big blow to the equality of a society, and also it´s a big loss. All those smart poor kids. Why would you want a society that encouragesa opportunism and agression???
Socialism doesn't work, at all. People should provide for themselves rather than looking to the "evil rich" who aren't "paying their fair share." Why should people work hard when what they earn is going to be taken away to be given away to those who really aren't worth it? Why not just sit on your lazy ass drinking beer, playing Playstation and wait for your little check to cover your health insurance or food, things individuals should do for themselves. Competition breeds excellence. Poverty is a state of laziness, of poor decision making. I believe that here, unlike in those Euro-socialist utopias with their high unemployment and even higher taxes, you can move up in station in society. You just have to: A. find something you love and can make money with B. work your ass off for it. If you're not willing to explore yourself, find your talent and exploit it via hard work and a little luck, you will end up working in Wal-Mart, jaded and hateful of those willing to do the work to become successful. I like competition. I like people who take advantage of an opportunity. That is at the core of what makes America great. And lastly, why do rich folks in your eyes have to possess all these empathy? Why is it considered selfish what rich people want to do with their own money? When I see the poor in this country, I don't see what I've seen in Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia and many other Third World ****holes where people starve daily. I see people who have automobiles, TV's and plumbing. In many of those aforementioned hellholes, they would be rich!
That´s your opinion. I think capitalism doesn´t work. Their wealth? Everything comes from the earth. How can anyone claim to have the right to certain things? Is it not everyones and noones? How can you say? No! You are not allowed to live here. Everywhere is just a piece of land. I think competition is a waste of resources, and it also makes development focus only on lucurative areas. Why is there no cure for HIV? Do you think there would be a cure by now if it spread through champaign and caviar?
For the year 2001, the budget for AIDS research was over 2 billion dollars which is more than is spent on cardio vascular research. The U.S. is putting a lot of spending into AIDS. The U.S. has recently pledged an additional 15 billion over the next 5 years to tackle AIDS issues in Africa and the Caribbean.
Capitalism doesn't work!? You've got to be kidding me! You can't be serious. Why is America the RICHEST nation in the world? Because we are a capitalistic society. Because there is private ownership we have people tapping into their creativity and work ethic to produce wonderous new inventions. What incentive is there for people to work hard and sacrifice if there are no big cars, nice houses, diamond rings, vacations, and boats to work for? You are living in a utopian fantasy world because people do things out of vested self-interest, not for some high-minded concern for the human race. You know that socialism makes everyone in society equal....equally miserable. You tell me what socialist/communist state has been an economic powerhouse without any capitalistic leanings (like in China). I'll go ahead and answer that one for you.....not a one.
I don't think anyone is responding because you seem to be contradicting yourself. You make the argument for socialism and also for equality, democracy, etc. Well, the problem with communism and socialism is that they equate property and money with happiness. Of course, at some basic level you have to take care of the very weakest (why not all welfare is bad), but just by redistributing the wealth you do not gain things like equality and democracy. Equality is not that all have the same, its that all should have the same chance, and the individual provides the rest, but all to often I see European nations place their happiness in their economy, and I hate that America has begun to do that. Things like democracy and freedom also come with responsibilites like hard work and virtue, so when you say that we aren't caring for these elements, you yourself seem to e caring even less for them.
It's true that most successful socialist states have elements of capitalism in them, just as in the U.S. there are elements of socialism. Pure capitalism doesn't work, nor does pure socialism.
Socialism gives you the freedom to do what you find meaningful for yourself and your society. Capitalism forces you to do alll you can to make enough money. Can you be free and a slave under the dollar? How can everyone have the same chance when a good education costs a fortune? Everyone will have A chance. I can agree on that. But everyone will not have an equal, or even somewhat equal chance to do what they want. The market is as harsh an oppressor as many dictators. Just not as obvious.
Not to be mean, but you make some pretty shallow assumptions about capitalism... I'm pretty sure you only become a slave to the wage if you choose too. People are free to get whatever job they want, and if they want to be mindless corparate stooges they can, and if they want to be a beach bum who sales surfboards they can, and if they want to go to IKEA and buy products that captalism has allowed us to import from the land of beautiful people, they can do that too. Money does not rule us. Why don't you go play with some bunnies in a park in Stockholm, or take the train on that really long bridge from Malmo to Kopehagen, while me and my American Commrades, with whom I met at a college where I recieved a full tuition academic scholarship because of my hard work in high school, go out and play basketball without any worry of the dollar creeping into our simple little capatalistic minds.
I think we are all the free markets slaves. Much more than we believe. I´m not sure I´m up for more discussion for a while now. Thank you for arguing everyone (sorry for making this thread something it was not meant to be).
