Disconcerting thing about Vspan or am I worrying too much

Van Gundy hates white people.

 

Best post of the thread. Some people are just reading too deep into things. Stop reaching so hard. Do you guys think he is really that mentally weak that bench time in his FIRST nba season is going to hurt his game? Maybe yall would feel that way because you are weak minded individuals but I don't think V-Span is like that. As a matter of fact, any rookie who is griping about playing time in their rookie season shouldn't even get to play. You got a long career ahead of you and it's not going to hurt if you sit on the bench for one season.

VSPAN is a professional and he will get his chance. Don't even try blaming JVG for this one. He rarely played JL3 this season but he gave him a chance and JL3 produced in those minutes. JVG did the right thing and rewarded him with more minutes. It would have been the same if VSPAN had produced in his limited minutes but he didn't. It isn't JVG's fault that VSPAN is not playing. If it's anyones fault, it would be Spanolis's own fault.

 

Because he drank too much Tsingtao pijiu?

Nash is not only a brilliant passer, floor manager, playmaker, etc - he's an absolute deadeye shooter from outside, which opens everything else up for him. Nash has one mediocre shooting season in his career during hte truncated 1999 season, other than that he has been up with the elite gunners in the league, especially over the last 4 years or so.

I don't know which of those qualities that Spanoulis shares but right now I have seen him do almost none of the above consistently at any time.

He throws some passes that look cool sometimes - at the cost of throwing other passes into the front row.

 

I understand what Don is saying and would almost agree accept Vspan has not been given 1 minute at the point. JVG does not now and may never see him as a point. ANd please don't say he will eventually. Come on if he had any inclination to play him at the point he would have at least experimented with it during garbage minutes when Vspan could afford to make mistakes... but nothing. Not since the preseason. I would even take it a step further and say the only reason he was given any serious minutes at the 2 was because Snyder Tmac and Bonzi were out. When Yao comes back how will that change JVG's opinion on Vspan. With a healthy roster Vspan is 5th at the 2 and not even on the map at the 1. He is bench fodder just waiting to be relegated to the DL once Bonzi and Snyder return and he may never see the bench again after Yao comes back! So I see holes in Don's theory. I am not even arguing the point. There is definitely some justification not rocking the boat theory. My problem is early on when there was some opportunities for Vspan and Van Gundy didn't play him.

But enough banter about things out of my control I have good seats for the game tomorrow night and I root for my team on the court. ANd maybe at some point JVG will release Vspan from the bench and allow him to play in the NBDL.

 

Nash's handle is unbelievable as well, almost never picks up his dribble and dribbles around players like a rat in a maze.

 

Wow I made the mistake of taking samfishy of my ignore list for one second. That was a mistake. He is clearly the smelliest fish in the sea.

I don't know exactly why Yao said it but t was clearly meant as a compliment. I suspect like many of us he was dazzled by Vspan's clever passing. Plus it is clear, Vspan was one of the best at getting the ball to Yao. It's ashame we won't be afforded the opportunity to enjoy that in the Van Dummy era.

 

hahahahha

I'm lovin it

OMR owns this

chea!

 

This may anger you, but right now I am in the camp that JVG is our superstar next to Tmac. Dont understimate the power of coaching. Even if a team is stacked with talents, not any NBA coach could lead it to success. The clippers, the warriors, there are plenty of examples. And I disagree with you that without Yao we still have enough talents to win. Mike Fratello is not a shabby coach at all, and what record the Griz had under his reign this year without Gasol? That Griz team arguably is as talented as our roster minus Yao. Tmac, Yao, and his old Knick troops like Ewin repeatedly lauded Van Gundy as the best coach they have ever played, consider Ewin had played for Pat Reilly, Don Nelson, Tmac had played for Doc Rivers. I dont think they said it because they needed to please Van Gundy for PT. If you understand that his demeanor is an reflection of his uncomprising standard for excellence, you would appeciate his dedication as an NBA head coach. How many coaches in this league are like him still dogged about plays in garbage time. Not many coaches would be like him sticking out for his players either. To me this might be the year for us if we make the playoff and Yao comes back in time under JVG's coaching.

As for Vspan, I just have a sneaking suspicion that this cooling period is a strategy of JVG's to let out a true Span. Just wait and see, before the season ends, Vspan will be playing and hopefully he establishes him in the team then.

 

I am not angry. I understand many on this board are still in favor with our coach. I don't blame them. He is very good at manipulating the press and making you think he is better than he is. Hell I even bought into his I am changing concept because I wanted to believe in him. I donot relish the thought of disliking my teams coach. But I tell you now he is a wolf in sheep clothing, only he is wearing a pretty new dog suit with a tie instead. But I still smell the smelly wolf. I see thru him and I've seen his antics up close on many occasions. I watched him scream at Yao belittling him. I watched as he screamed at Vspan and I watched as he sucked at coaching offense and put it in Tmac's hands. He is a smart defensive coach with a little napaleonic mind who is also smart enough to know whose ass to kiss. and he kisses well. Nothing wrong with that if he wasn't such a weasle to the lesser players.

So no problem with you liking the coach but just remember with a healthy Yao playing almost MVP like he could not buy a victory. Being up on Dallas in the playoffs with 2 superstars he couldn't buy a victory. And now he is winning with a much more talented team and he is supposed to be brilliant. I am not buying it. It's no coincidence that Houston is better and the Grizzlies or worst. It's no coincidence that Battier beat out Bowen for a spot on team USA. Shane's numbers don't show it but he is clearly much more valuable than anyone realizes.

As for Van Gundy he is a good defensive coach who overall is average at best. I tell you many coaches can easily achieve as much. People will argue I only find fault with him because he doesn't play the players I like but that is not so. I could care less if he doesn't play Vspan the rest of the season if that is the right thing for the team. And I think it actually might be now. But it wasn't before. And there was no reason not to give him experience at the point in garbage minutes. Prepare him for the future and quit being so petty Van Gundy that is all I ask. Actually I ask for his firing but I would settle for much less and I am.

 

Not much to disagree on 2). But to 1), I think you may have jumped to conclusion too soon. First, what do you mean by average NBA point guard? Alson is a starting PG who has played heavy minutes, while Spanoulis has been at most a rotational player who played limited minutes and in limited number of games. His turnover number has largely been inflated by 2 bad games. Not a fair comparison. Lucas is SG in PG's body, who almost never passes. Not exactly an apple-to-apple comparison here, either.

Anecdotal evidence is OK, but you need to examine it within proper context. We should ask ourselves: 1) Was Spanoulis known as a turnover machine before he came to play in NBA? 2) Did Spanoulis' turnovers have any severely adverse effect on the successes by the various teams he played in Europe? It's ture JVG complained about Spanoulis' turnover problem, but JVG also swallowed many of the mistakes committed by his veterans. It's well established JVG's criticisms are one-sided towards certain players whom he thinks he can bully without much repercussion, thus they should be taken with caution as the sole and the "impartial" guidance to player evaluations.

Again, without concrete evidence in proper context, this may have been a perception rather than reality.

Insufficient data to make it conclusive.

I have no intention to argue about Novak since that would be another discusion in itself. Novak was mentioned mainly to illustrate my point that preseason stats are highly unreliable. Also I have a real aversion to Lucas when it comes to playmaking. He is not a PG. Period.

So you are now saying you have been talking all along about something you don't really have concrete evidence?

If you go back to my very first reply to your post, I didn't dispute (nor agree with) your conclusion, my objection was specifically on one of the methodologies you adopted -- converting a bench player's stats in limited minutes to 48-minute stats and (then) comparing them to starters'. I think I could'nt have made it clearer.

 

OMR, you dont have to post answer to this question here, but I want to ask you if JVG out of blue inserts Vspan into the starting lineup from next game and on, consequently he develops into a stellar player like Tony Parker, and nothing else changes, same grumpy Gundy, same boring offense, will you change your attitude towards JVG?

 

Plus, a sheep-skinned wolf and cunning b*stard wouldnt shell out money from his own pocket to buy 50 season tickets for the team either.

 

It was implied, unmistakably by quoting a specific portion of NIKEstrad's post.

Yes, that what I said, unless the comparison is somewhat apple-to-apple. BTW, it was about the /48 minute stats.

Maybe, maybe no.

I never claim to dismiss VSpan's turnover numbers, be it preseason or regular season. I said preseason stats ought to be given less weight, and I sought to provide a possible explanation to VSpan's seemingly high turnover numbers in the regular season.

May be true if you take into consideration of his outside shooting.

Excluding? Don't try to put words into my mouth, Sammy.

 

LOL ... but that should be Alston. VSpan is not like that, he dribbles with purpose -- to attack the rim.

 

No, but I have to say for him to do that means perhaps I misjudged him. And I am not saying that isn't possible but I have thought before I've misjudged him then he proves me wrong again. It is true I am not crazy about his boring offense but I don't dislike him for that. I was talking to my son over the holidays about why I dislike the man. And I came to conclusion that the Rockets are like my surrogate family. Cd is like my Grandpa and Les is like my distant rich Uncle and the players are like my children. Even Morey feels like he just married into the family thru one of my cousins but he seems like a good guy. And Van Gundy is not really even like family maybe he is like Pauly in Rocky one. He isn't even part of the family but he wants to act like he is cause he wants the benefits and he makes the Rockets wear that stupid robe so he can make a few bucks. But the thing is he doesn't really care about Rocky. He's just thinking for himself. And that's the way I feel.

So why do I get so annoyed at Pauly... he's just a moron. It's because he's messing with my children. And I just don't let people mess with my children. Once this 3rd or 4th grade kid was picking on my son who was in the 1st grade at the time, in the bus everyday for a while. And at first I told my son not to let him make you cry and be tough. And I tried to let that be but I could see my son was trying but he was clearly hiding his tears. I mean he hated the bus. And I know the right thing was to go talk to the father but it was my kid and I couldn't stand that anyone could be hurting him. It actually made me sick with rage. So one day I waited outside with a chainsaw next to an old stump in my front yard and when the kid and my son got off the the bus I proceeded to rip that stump apart with that chainsaw looking at that kid straight in the eyes as my son walked past me. Suffice it to say that boy never messed with my son anymore.

The point is that is my kid who I loved with all my heart and while I may get pissed at him and discipline him I would never deliberately belittle him. ANd while the Rocket players are not my children I feel to alesser degree the same way about them. And I don't want anyone trying to belittle for no reason. I mean be fair and discipline yes but don't teat Yao like a buffon when he is playing his heart at. Bench him if you must talk to him sternly if you must but be consistent and above all be fair. If I felt Van Gundy really cared about all of the players that way maybe I would feel different toward him. But Van Gundy doesn't come across to me that way at all. I find him to be cold and indifferent accept when it benefits him. He kisss ass to the right players and treats all others as tools to be discarde as easily as they are obtained. I think I need to take the chainsaw to him.

 

Certainly he would especially when there are a thousand fans screaming fire Van Gundy behind him. He dropped 50 grand for some great publicity and his own cheering section. It's a drop in the bucket for him, a great tax write off and you'll never hear the Rowdies say fire Van Gundy. Smart move Van Gundy it even fooled me for a bit.

 

1. Addressed below. It was something the Rockets wanted him to improve upon.
2. Spanoulis was the 3rd guard for his Greek team. For his European team, my understanding is he took on a #1/#2 option role. The tolerance for turnovers in that role is different. And if you want to talk about application, there is virtually no relevance of applying Spanoulis' Euroleague role to the NBA.

It was a 28 point win - there were very few problems, but that was one of them. He also criticized Chuck Hayes earlier in the post-game. The blackeye on the game was turnovers by the whole team, and Spanoulis was the biggest culprit Well established by whom? Because OMR says he's Jeff Van Dummy? What he's said to the media has also shown to not be entirely consistent with how he hands out minutes. An example of this may be Juwan Howard, who I can't recall JVG calling him anything but the consummate professional and a hard worker, but he was still benched at the beginning of the year because he was no longer the best option.

Ultimately, it's where he takes his place in the rotation that truly shows what Van Gundy think of him- and unless your argument that the underlying reason for Spanoulis not playing is defense or his poor shooting, then there's not really much at issue. But below, Van Gundy flat out states that Spanoulis' playing time is based on how he takes care of the ball.

It's a philosophical thing. Spanoulis' nature is to play with wild abandon, creating havoc, which is not what the Rockets want right now. In the true definition of a PG, I agree - Lucas isn't one. But the fact of the matter is, especially when Yao is healthy, we don't need our PG to be a playmaker; we only need the PG to get us into our sets. Lucas has been borderline remarkable in his ability to not turn the ball over, even if he has been a little shot happy (which so far has been without much time lined up without TMac or Yao). He gets up the court quickly, and has a good handle. Plus he's hitting shots at a pretty nice clip. That's why he's slowly been jumping in playing time. His problem is he's a gnat that gets abused by the likes of Chucky Atkins. I think he'd get even more time if he weren't such a sieve.

JL3 has a ton of flaws, but right now he's scoring decently on a nice clip and not turning the ball over...and that's pretty much been his M.O. since college.

Are you now saying that concrete evidence is necessary? I don't get it. Spanoulis has years of European ball which the Rockets have better access to than any of us. The team has also gotten to see him in practice on a daily basis. The person who knows his progress in the NBA best is Van Gundy.

As far as questioning whether turnovers were an issue coming in... here you go. If you don't take Dennis Lindsey's word for it...I don't know what will do. Taking care of the ball is the only thing Lindsey specifically mentioned; I don't think it's a stretch to say it was a top concern, if not THE concern.

"Certainly it's very important," Rockets vice president Dennis Lindsey said. "Malik's progress has been steady since we've retained his rights for two years. We want to see where his growth had taken him and where he needs to go. It's different for Vassilis. He's more mature. He's more polished. We'd need to see some areas we highlighted for Vassilis to improve upon.

"We want to see where he's addressed those in regards to our organization to be safer with the ball. His nature is to be an aggressive driver. At times he had turnovers because of that." Link

Here's what Van Gundy when Spanoulis first got into the rotation: Van Gundy said Spanoulis is guaranteed increased playing time "as long as he can keep his turnovers to a minimum. He had the one jump-in-the-air pass that got stolen, (but) he was turning it over, like, once every four minutes in the preseason. Link

Clearly Van Gundy doesn't completely dismiss preseason action. Van Gundy also set in motion what Spanoulis needed to do to stay in the rotation. Outliers or not, he didn't do it.

It's a rate. And I didn't really compare it to starters, I compared it to the rest of the league...and he ranked in the top 20 in the league at that rate. Most of the guys ahead of him either are primary options or play even less than him (for the same reason, most likely).

Either dispute it or not. If you're not disputing it, then you're arguing statistics for the sake of arguing. I haven't seen any support for the argument that Spanoulis takes care of the ball. Again, I'm not using the stats to say "if he got x minutes, he would turn the ball over x times". All I'm saying is he's turned the ball over at much higher rate than Rafer and JL3, and among the highest rates in the league. That's why he's logging minimal minutes.

 

OMR, you never run out your arsenal to "belittle" JVG. My mother had a theory that people alike often dislike each other. You love to live on slippery slope when come to critcize JVG.
I have trouble with your theory that JVG has scheme to kiss star players and dog the lesser players on the team. That would truly make him an ahole. But have you noticed that the other day, he was patting Deke on the rear applauding for his effort on the court. Now, if JVG was that kind of ahole as you put, he would have no business patting Deke's rear. Why did he then? Many times he praised JHO for his professionism when both Yao and Tmac were healthy, and it didnt make any sense that he had to kiss JHO's ass. When did he then?
JVG is not that kid that wanted to bully your son. To me he reminds me of my high school math teacher who often handed out tough love in the form of harsh criticism. His intention was benign and sincere in improving his student as well as the whole class's performance. Without knowing what's going on behind the door, we fans always make such subjective judgements about players and coaches. For that reason, we should take what Tmac, Yao and Ewing said about JVG. Also from what I saw about JVG so far, he is consistent too. Which coach doesnt have a little scheme? In a way, coaching is a scheme to manage players to play in the system as a team. In that regard, he has every right to kiss his star players and slave drive lesser player for the benifit of the team.

 

I think its a good sign that we actually have talent on the roster that may or may not be going to waste. This time last season we were arguing about Bowen getting too many minutes over Bogans. When Snyder comes back I don't know if V-span will even get a sniff at the court. But we're winning without our superstars (one or the other respectively) and we still have talent to develop. V-span has all the time in the world to develop his game and he will eventually get his chance but we're still a month away from getting Yao back and nobody is talking about tanking, is this a sign of a more optimistic GARM?