His metrics would all improve if he takes a step forward. Is there any precedent in nba history for a guy in his late 20s to go from one of the worst players in the league to being good? I don’t get why memphis was this horrible situation, he had adams and jjj, that’s pretty damn good. His situation in houston is WAY worse. He also didn’t just suck last season, he has been a huge negative every year of his career except one, where he was a replacement level player (g leage level) for 32 games. That was his best
His metrics would all improve if he takes a step forward. Is there any precedent in nba history for a guy in his late 20s to go from one of the worst players in the league to being good? I don’t get why memphis was this horrible situation, he had adams and jjj, that’s pretty damn good. His situation in houston is WAY worse.
Right, so you understand his metrics would improve and there's nothing in his past metrics that would tell you that right? I don't know of a precedent where one of the worst players becomes excellent, but I'm 1,000% sure there are tons of examples of players going from having among the worst metrics to having not-the-worst metrics. That's much easier than a player becoming good over one off-season. If you'd like me to show you an example, point me to a list of the worst players from a couple of seasons ago - a list you trust. As for Memphis being a better situation, that's very subjective. I'd argue FVV is a better floor general than any Memphis starter during Brooks' tenure. Our second best playmaker in the starting lineup will be better than their second best floor general in the starting lineup. Our coach might just be better than their coach. We'll see how it goes.
Ok so i'm trying to look this up. In 20-21 season, there were 2 guys who were at the -1 VORP or worse level (brooks was 532nd that season at -0.9) who weren't super young, and that's rodney hood and dwayne bacon. I believe that's when hood tore up his knee? He's been awful since and might be outa the league. Bacon is outa the league as well. If you go to the prior season, age 24 brooks is 526th, the next worst non super young guy is treveon graham at -0.8, brooks was -1.1. Graham is outa the league. Age 35 Melo is also down there, we all know how awful he was. If you go to 18-19 season, there's age 26 austin rivers who the metrics hate because of his horrid efficiency, he is actually still in the league. Wayne selden is also there at age 24, he was outa the league after that. Age 28 avery bradley is there as well, but he was washed and did nothing after that. The year before brooks was age 22 and was 539th outa 540, but there's avery bradley again and ian mihinmi also down there. It looks like the biggest success story is austin rivers?
VORP isn't the only metric. Brooks has a negative Box Plus-Minus every season in the NBA, including a negative Defensive Box Plus-Minus thanks to his propensity to foul and his entire defense relying on gambling at the point of attack because JJJ and Adams can clean up most messes left to them. Win Shares per 48 minutes hates him too. No season with a WS/48 value above .100, the mark of an average role player in the NBA. In fact, aside from his outlier season last year with a WS/48 of .087, he never put up a season above .040. A repeat of that performance, given Jalen Green and Jabari Smith's improvement, likely lands him as the worst player in the Rockets' rotation this upcoming season.
In support of brooks, something like VORP is an accumulation stat, so the more you play the more you gain/lose. When brooks ranks 520th for example, he’s actually better then the 520th best player. I wouldn’t be able to do this but if you standardize everyone to say 2000 minutes, it’s very possible brooks cracks the top 450, which would put him as a reasonable 15th man.
I never stated VORP was the only metric, was just responding to who was using it as their validation in our back and forth convo And all of that win share/PER and whatever alphabet gang derives from what a player showcases on the hardwood, which is why I stated Brooks is who he is from the games I have watched from him, and he was just a dog type player who made his name on defense/grit and hitting 3's here and there, basically a bigger version of Pat Bev who is not a 80+ mill$ contract He is someone you talk about defense, not offense, I don't need metrics to tell me something I have saw for years, but giving I haven't watched all his games then the metrics can put me in the loop and confirm what I pretty much seen from him over the years when they showcase a Grizz game on national tv No diff than me knowing how Luka basically feasts on Rockets majority of his career, I don't need metrics to point that out, and based on his past few yrs Luka has been feasting on the entire NBA from the eye test and data viewpoint combined
Im guessing that maybe there is more to the numbers or whatever value he brings is maybe not going to be best shown by advanced stats. The past two seasons the Grizzlies finished second in the west with 50 plus wins each season. The past three seasons have all been playoff berths. Do you know who started the most games and played the most minutes for them by far last year and over the course of their three year run who is top three in on court time? That’s right, you guessed it. Dillon Brooks. For them to accomplish what they have with “the worst player in the nba” being on the court for them so much is simply remarkable. Grizzlies should probably be one of the best teams ever considering what they’ve accomplished with Brooks taking all those minutes. This year without him, they’ll probably win 70 games and sweep all the way to the finals. Just messing around…but seriously I think Memphis has a good coach. I don’t think he’d have relied on a guy so much he thought was a detriment to the team. I am going to trust Ime for now but he has a good track record and he wanted Brooks. Three other contenders reportedly had interest and had meetings set up with him in the lakers, bucks and sixers. Of course we over paid to get him since we suck, but still three contending teams that we know of thought enough of him to set up meetings with him. Rockets have some good depth at the wings and forward positions so it’s not like all our eggs are in the Brooks basket. If one or more of those guys outplays him I’m sure Ime will reward them. Besides, it’s not like this signing came in the midst of trying to win a title. The Rockets just need to not be complete ass next season. It’s really not that big of a deal.
Just to dispute your memphis point, Bane had a differential of +14.3 per 100, adams +11.6, JJJ +9.8, Ja +6.6. All extremely positive. Brooks? -0.3, so the only started not only in the negative the by almost 7 pts per 100
Right. But i dont think thats disputing my point. Last season he logged the most minutes for them. What im saying is that despite the numbers being bad for brooks, they were still 2nd in the west with him playing the most minutes for them. The worst player in nba statistically played the most minutes for the second best team in the west. And their coach kept playing him tons of minutes and they kept winning. EVERYONE else on the Grizzlies is either THAT good or maybe Brooks actual impact on winning is not as detrimental as the numbers make it seem. Keep in mind Brooks was the ONLY starter for them to play over 70 games. Bane played less games than Morant last season.
Ya, when they have ja/bane/jjj in the lineup that's an incredible top 3 with incredible offense/defense balance. If you look at offensive rating, memphis was 102 with brooks on court, the next worst started was ja at 114, a full 12 points. He also had the worst defensive rating among their starters, but outside of the elite bigs by only 1 or 2 points. Of course we know he's prob the worst/most damaging offensive player in basketball, but there's really nothing to indicate he's all that impactful on defense (because of his fouling and stupidity). Not the advanced metrics, not the on/off, nothing.
so being actually available trumps all in sports, which for better or worse for Grizz it was Brooks suiting up to go to war The Grizz downfall was Morant (Bane/Adams also) being in and out and not having proper rhythm, it seemed like Brooks took 90% of postseason failure due to how he attacked the golden boy and of course he didn't play well, but its not his team based on who they gave the big bags$ to if they were all healthy Brooks would be 4th option, nobody in NBA history as a true 4th option would get 30% of the blame for losing a playoff series, let alone almost all of it
this is all irrelevant, i'm only talking about brooks and what he is/isn't. Him being available is a bad thing, not a good thing. His postseason blame was because he put up a sub 40% TS, an 84 offensive rating and a 116 defense player. To say he was trash is an insult to trash.
I mentioned his postseason short coming, which his play on the hardwood displayed that, and the other stuff I mentioned is very relevant and the reason why they got sent home was because the big 3 came up small as a whole, the 4th wheel Brooks assisted in that as well, including their big man being unavailable You keep thinking posting his TS/rating is helping your case, but if you actually watched that televised series it was clear as day he didn't perform well, and the media poured on him even more for poking the bear, the media and NBA loved golden boy(Bron) But if you didn't actually watch the series then I see why you keep posting your beloved data Bball is a simple sport to dissect, especially if you have played and been a key part of your team success or failure The more I see folks using data to stake their claim, the more I get convinced they have never played the game, on any level starting at local park/gym, do you fit that description? Your metrics are irrelevant in the macro aspect
i didn't play beyond recreational no, did you play pro ball? That's pretty cool, but i don't think that makes evaluating players any different. I don't care what brooks did in the post season, my view of him did not change in that lakers series. I don't think less of him because of it, my views (and all that data that someone you find is....wrong?) did not change in that series.
