Did we get less for james harden than we gave up for Westbrook?

If I'm Aaron Sorkin, here's how I write that scene in my screenplay for Titanic 2: The Houston Rockets Under Tilman Fertitta Story:

Morey: "I tried to add Westbrook to this team, but OKC wants too much in return."
Tilman: "What if we send CP3 to them?"
Morey: "Why on earth would we want to do THAT?"
Tilman: "Because CP3 has the worst contract in the entire league, that's why."
Morey: "I'll see if they're even interested."

later that day...

Morey: "Presti gave us a really sh!tty proposal."
Tilman: "What was it?"
Morey: "You don't wanna know. Definitely a questionable trade."
Tilman: "WHAT WAS IT?!?"
Morey: "We get Westbrook in return for CP3 and four 1st-round picks."
Tilman: "James and Westbrook are buds, right?"
Morey: "Yeah, so?"
Tilman: "So make that trade!"
Morey: "Four first-rounders is our entire future, though."
Tilman: "We're one of the best teams in the league. Those picks will all be in the 25-30 range."
Morey: "But FOUR of them? It's a crazy bad trade."
Tilman: "I don't give a ****, I don't want Chris Paul stealing my money for another few years. Make the trade."
Morey: "As GM, I strongly advise against it."
Tilman: "You're a stats nerd, Daryl, not a businessman. I'm a businessman. I know how to do business, and I say make the trade."
Morey: "But it'll kill our roster flexibility going forward."
Tilman: "It's my ******* team and I said MAKE THE TRADE!"
Morey: "Are you sure you want to do this? It could totally backfire on us."
Tilman: "What part of MAKE THE TRADE do you not understand?!?"
Morey: mumbling under his breath "Sure thing, Mr. Dolan."
Tilman: "WHAT DID YOU SAY?"
Morey: "Nothing, boss. Hey, do you know any real estate agents in Philadelphia? I'm looking for a vacation home."

 

the 2025 pick is top 10 protected, Both the 2024 and 26 pick are top 4 protected. You are forgetting that the big three in Brooklyn come out of contract soon and could leave

Oklahoma City has the right to swap its 2025 1st round pick for Houston's 2025 1st round pick protected for selections 1-10 or the L.A. Clippers' 2025 1st round pick; Houston then has the right to swap its pick or Oklahoma City's 2025 1st round pick for Brooklyn's 2025 1st round pick; if the Houston pick falls within its protected range, then Houston's obligation to Oklahoma City will be extinguished and Houston will instead receive the more favorable of its pick and the Brooklyn pick and Brooklyn will receive the less favorable of the two [L.A. Clippers-Oklahoma City, 7/10/2019; Houston-Oklahoma City, 7/16/2019; Brooklyn-Cleveland-Houston-Indiana, 1/16/2021]

 

Thats my point.

WTF...who do you think was pushing for the deal dude? There was no deals like that for Cp3 at the time. A year later he showed how good he was on OKC. Its not hard to understand. Morey never wanted to trade him to begin with, that is my point. Morey never wanted to give up assets to get Wesetbrook.

This is completely out of touch with reality. We got Wall(who we are trying to get rid of now) and a heavily protected pick for Westbrook, we got nothing.

They.....oh boy.

 

LMAO yea....Morey def said "Let me give you the better player and picks" haha. Do you even here yourself? You are so deluded that you would actually think Daryl would give assets for Westbrook when we have info here saying he didnt want to. Its likely this was Presti's offer from the start.

No you just hang off of Tillman's crotch. I refuted many of your stupid arguments but you didnt have one counter to it and we are here like usual.

 

No it wasnt LOL. This is so awful.

 

Cp3's value at the time wasn't as high as it is now. The reason the Rockets got fleeces is because the perceived contract asset of CP3 was even lower than Westbrook's somehow.

Yes the Rockets got destroyed in that trade but at the time it wasn't as bad as it is seen now. It was never a good trade at the time but it was to please Harden. CP3's contract was perceived to be bad due to his injury history not because he sucks. He was getting older, not younger. When he was younger he had a career of injuries. That history is what lowered CP3's value. Nobody expected him to be nearly as healthy as he is now.

 

Im not contesting Morey wanted to keep Cp3, its been mentioned a lot Fertita and Harden pushed for the trade.

But its like the stock market Harden and Fertita decided on the stock Morey was the one who decided on the price. Fertita and Harden didnt say to Morey make sure you give up 4 picks and 2 swaps or whatever the ridiculous package was, thats Morey and Presti negotiating with each other. Sure Morey didnt want to give up assets cuz he hated WB but its still his job to minimize what assets to give up just like its Presti's job to maximize the return on WB. If you remember when Cp3 and Harden first talked there werent any suitors for him cuz he said outright he signing with the Rockets and nobody else. How come Morey still had to give up the farm for him (Harrell, Beverly, picks, Dekker who was seen as a good player at the time, FRP)? Being the captive market is a limiting factor to a trade but thats just a test of GM's ability to negotiate. Im not saying Morey should have gotten a kings ransom for Cp3 but in hindsight Rox shouldnt have paid so much picks and swaps if Morey negotiated better.

"Getting nothing" for WB is still better than losing the boat load of assets that the Rox lost in acquiring him in the first place. You cant even argue the ridiculous cost is due to Cp3 having a bad year, WB had a worse year and Rockets still got a pick in return.

In short its on Harden and Fertita for being short sighted and dumping Cp3 but its on Morey for getting owned by Presti and giving up a King's ransom for a player he knew wasnt very good. If you ask me Morey ****ed up even more than Harden and Fertita cuz he gave up so much draft capital without fighting for it. Some people were saying he doomed the Rox and made a mess that he prob wont have to clean up.

When Morey quit the Rox hadnt received a FRP in like 5 years. You cant blame that on Fertita lol.

 

Ok.

Morey diddnt want to do it. There was no backing out of it, there was no negotiation. Presti had a price for taking on Chris Paul, Morey who already didnt want to do the deal, was forced by Harden and a larger extent Tillman. The end. Morey's job is telling Tillman, hey this is a bad deal. Which is what he did, Tillman still decided to push this deal thorugh anyways. He said this on TV. Those players were good value for Cp3. If we still had Cp3 it would still be good value. And now what are those players seen as? Do you think the Clippers would rather have Chris Paul right now? Of course they would. Negotiate LOL. When you have your boss, your bosses son and Harden telling you to get a deal done for deal you dont want, what do you think happens. Cp3's value was not good at that time. Thats what you arent getting. But Morey also didnt want to give up assets for Westbrook, especially not 4 picks. Our insiders have already said this many times. Morey didnt want to do this deal, Tillman forced it through, the end. When a person is asking for too much, you drop the deal, but that wasnt what was allowed to happen. What negotiations do you have when both the owner and your star player want this deal done? Even then Morey told Harden this wasnt happening and that bone head stills stepped in.

None of which were Morey's fault. That pick will never convey, its heavily protected, its worth jack ****. It was a lateral move Westbrook is also better than Wall(well not better but more moveable because of less injury concerns). We traded Westbrook for another bad contract and a pick that wont convey. Silly argument.

Morey didnt get owned by Presti if he got forced into a deal he didnt want to happen in the first place. Fighting LOL? Your owner and Harden knew the terms of the deal, Morey didnt want it, but they did, it went through. That's not Morey's fault. Its completely and totally idiotic to think that Morey is on the wrong on this one.

FRP our overvalued anyways and we needed to use them improve the Roster with Harden here, a lot of which was wasted by your boy Fertitta. Stop trying to give me garbage, it doesnt work.

 

If there is no negotiation why even have a GM? If WB is a lateral move then couldnt Morey do a lateral move as well?

WB wanted out just like how Harden wanted Cp3 out. Wizards the only available party just like how OKC the only one with WB. How come Stone didnt have to part with multi picks and swaps? You can say the pick is worth nothing but at least Rox didnt lose more draft assets. Hows that compared to losing multi picks and swaps?

Even if Harden and Tillman wanted the trade thats not how negotiations work. Presti gives a price, Morey gives a price they meet somewhere. Morey prob okd the first offer Presti gave without bargaining thats why the deal was so bad.


Proof of the pudding is in the eating. 2 GMs got great return for Cp3 and another gm got "lateral" return for WB. Morey the only one who got massively fleeced pretty clear he either mailed it in or got owned. Maybe both. The end.

 

Maybe, but when you have KD and Harden on the same team, I think they have a very good shot of making it work, that is without even considering the fact that Kyrie when healthy is a top 10 player easily, and at times looks like he is a top 5 player. Not really sure what you could possibly think a better combo could be besides KD/Harden. You have two top three players on the same team, not really much you can do as far as shuffling for an upgrade if it doesn't work, there is literally maybe 2 people on the planet that could be an upgrade, everyone else would a downgrade. I would run back a team with Harden and KD every year until their contracts are up, that will be your best shot. They really only need KD/Harden to win it all, Kyrie is just a bonus, you can maybe upgrade him, but with that upgrade if they don't win then it is just pure bad luck. BKN is not going to be a lottery team anytime soon.

WB has an insane ability to torpedo a team and franchise, and many knew it would happen, you can not find that level of suck easily so I do not think you can compare what BK has vs. what we had with Russ. Russ in my opinion is a perennial loser who is flashy and puts up numbers.

 

No, because no one wanted to take a chance on Chris Paul at the time, just like no one wanted to take Westbrook except a Washington who had an equally bad contract. There was a price, Morey didnt want to meet it, the end. I doubt Morey wanted to add in ANY picks for Westbrook. Dont give me this crap when there extenuating circumstances that made this trade what it was.

Because there was no pressure on Stone to freaking make a deal. Harden was already gone(mentally) by that point. Westbrook was traded because we wanted to get off his contract. Paul was traded because Harden and Tillman REALLY wanted Westbrook(and Tillman wanted off Paul's contract). Two different situations. This is bad logic. And btw Harden didnt want Cp3 out, he wanted Westbrook here. LOL after Harden wanted out, they had nothing to lose. Harden was already done by that point. And btw....Wall's contract as well Westbrook's contract were seen as easily trash. The only reason you could possibly percieve Westbrook's garbage contract as better was because he's younger. But even then you are missing the point THAT MOREY NEVER WANTED WESTBROOK PERIOD.

Yes it is when you have like 3 people pressuring you to get a deal done. Morey told Harden that this deal wouldnt be getting done because of the asking price, Harden has said he was okay with it, TILLMAN than stepped in and forced it through. Its likely that Presti knew our situation and stuck to his asking price. Morey who didnt want any assets being thrown in said the deal wasnt happening. The deal was so bad because Morey was forced, try to understand my god.

There is no proof there, you are comparing two different situations. Cp3 got traded after he looked amazing in OKC what are you even talking about? Another GM got a lateral return for a trash contract after said franchise was blowing it up. Do you understand now? I cant make it any clearer than that.

 

How about a comparison with the Warriors from a few years ago, then? Steph/Klay/KD/Draymond should be a top team for the foreseeable future, right? But due to one major defection (KD), two catastrophic injuries (Klay, obviously) and one less severe one (Steph), they go from being one of the best teams in the league to dead last in a single year, and are hovering near .500 the next.

If all three Nets stars get healthy and stay pretty healthy, they've got a great shot at still being a great team next year. Then contracts are up for renewal and who knows what happens? Throw in a major injury or two and they could very easily suck much sooner than you think.

 

They don’t have our 2025 pick. 24/26

 

Anything is possible, especially with KD and Kyrie's injury histories. I do think Harden has a few more years of being an ironman, and he can carry the team for large spurts while KD and Kyrie get regular rest, I don't think anyone on the Warriors team had that ability. Harden was able to carry a team in the West with what we now see were not very good role players, I think he can more easily do this in the East if necessary. I also think KD didn't like how Steph was treated vs him, I think this is a bay area thing and how Steph is marketed and perceived towards their fanbase who was loyal/bias towards Steph for years prior. Harden and KD I think have a friendship that wouldn't cause those feelings, and they are both new to BKN so I don't think there will be any difference in how they are treated, especially with a fanbase in BK that understands basketball much better. Two years in the NBA can change the entire prospective. I wouldn't hope this on them, but either way I think those outcomes are possible, but not highly likely, it could always be an issue we never thought of though. The one thing that has an outside possibility is Kyrie not being happy and KD agreeing to stick with him since they came to BK together, and finding a new home for Harden. Again, I feel like it is not likely, but possible.

The trade should have involved more guarantees when trading away a player as durable as Harden to his preferred destination. Involving 4 teams or being a bit more creative would have helped. I do not think this current FO is capable, they have been laughed at by several front offices by asking for too much initially and then getting fleeced in the 11th hour. They are playing checkers when most of the league is playing chess. Morey had his faults, but I definitely think our future would have looked much brighter and clearer with him running this process, vs. us hoping for a low probability outcome

 

Great point. Harden is only locked in for one more season after this one, so who knows what happens if the Nets don't win it all this year or next. Ownership won't want to carry three max-contract superstars who can't win a title together. Time will tell.

 

I will never not laugh at the fact that half this website thought the Westbrook/Paul trade was good. Worst trade in the history of the NBA.

 

So, someone who know, this years pick is top 4 protected. Meaning that if it isn’t 5th or worse, Oklahoma doesn’t get a pick. I didn’t see any option for replacement if Rockets pick within top 4 picks. Which at this point is very likely they will be between 1-4.

 

Our boy had big love for drizzled tank tops at the nudie bar then got out cultured by Tilman.

 

It's all about framing and timing right? One man's trash is another man's treasure and all that. Its not like WB was a valued commodity who had multiple suitors lined up to get him people knew he was overrated.

I made it obvious Morey didnt want WB. And obv since he didnt want WB he didnt to give up picks for WB. But people do things they dont want all the time, its his job to get the best value in all trades whether he likes the trade or not. Your thought process is prob the same as Morey just cuz he didnt want WB he mailed it in and ok'd the first price Presti gave.

Why didnt Morey talk about Cp3,'s history and how he will look better in a year? Why didnt he say WB is overrated and nobody else will give uo multiple picks for him? Why didnt he tell Harden and Fertita to wait a couple of weeks before pulling on the trade so he can play hard ball? Lots of stuff to do, its negotiation bluffs, schemes and lies are all in play.

You mean to tell me Morey didnt know Cp3 could have a bounce back year after he got traded? Had absolutely no clue and believed Cp3 was washed and worth nothing? If not then why did he allow Presti to treat Cp3 like the worst contract ever? Thats the framing wanted and Morey just went along with it. Presti was the market maker and Morey was the market taker. Presti said Cp3 sucks and Morey agreed. Presti said WB is the gawd and Morey agreed. Thats why the trade was so lopsided. We both agreed Morey didnt want Cp3 traded so he thought Cp3 wasnt washed. So why wasnt that reflected in the trade then? Point is Morey got owned on that trade, the end.

 

Harden is top 3 at the very least and arguably top 2 if not the best.