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Did the Spurs choke?

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by VanityHalfBlack, May 13, 2016.

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Choke Job?

  1. Yes

    49.5%
  2. No

    37.9%
  3. Kill Yo'self

    12.6%
  1. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    Spurs didn't "choke." You don't choke three games in a row.

    Pops was not able to adjust to OKC's defensive game plan...which was to make the LMA/Parker PnR beat them 4 out of 7 games. It couldn't. The plan was to stop the SAS motion offense, and limit second chance points. This was done by not doubling, not being aggressive with help defense, keeping Ibaka weakside for his disruptive length on counters (like SAS's Hammer plays) and going with a large front-line to stop second chance points. Keeping the help defense at bay cut-off the SAS weakside motion and cutting.

    But OKC almost got slaughtered by LMA while trying that defense. And Kawhi was still brilliant, often. But they stuck to the plan. And Pops either couldn't or wouldn't adjust.

    Thus they were out-coached and out game-planned. To say they weren't is making excuses for them. Pops stubbornness to stick to his game-plan and not believing the opponents can beat it got the better of him this time.

    Saying they choked is an excuse.
     
  2. what

    what Member

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    The problem is that Lamarcus limits what pop can do offensively. If aldridge were a better passer, he might have been able to integrate better (and by that I mean) getting his teammates involved more.

    Lamarcus puts you in a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. Because he is such a limited offensive player (only being able to get himself involved in the offense), and then pops trying to play Kwahi in the Lebron superstar role, it was basically 2 on 5 basketball.

    Since, Green, Manu, Tim, Parker and everyone else's game is hurt by the spurs best offensive option one two punch which is Aldridge/kawhi.

    Secondly, Aldridge gives you very little defensively so he is limited on that end, which is why that Marc Gasol was their first choice in free agency. When Marc thwarted the spurs that set them up for doom. Parker's decline didn't help either.
     
  3. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    Parker isn't hurt by LMA. Parker excels in PnR. It's just that he's not lightning fast anymore. Had he been a few years younger, the LMA/Parker PnR beats OKC. It destroyed OKC in Game 1 for sure, and was dominant in Game 2, as well. OKC just made them keep doing it, and found the right defenders to cover LMA to frustrate him a little, and Pops couldn't adjust, because OKC took out the motion attack by not using help defense on LMA/Parker.

    very beautiful to watch a defense neutralize SAS's motion and see them crumble when their weakside motion didn't work anymore.

    Basically, the Book is out on this SAS team now.
     
  4. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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    <blockquote class="instagram-media" data-instgrm-captioned data-instgrm-version="7" style=" background:#FFF; border:0; border-radius:3px; box-shadow:0 0 1px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.5),0 1px 10px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.15); margin: 1px; max-width:658px; padding:0; width:99.375%; width:-webkit-calc(100% - 2px); width:calc(100% - 2px);"><div style="padding:8px;"> <div style=" background:#F8F8F8; line-height:0; margin-top:40px; padding:36.8518518519% 0; text-align:center; width:100%;"> <div style=" background:url(data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACwAAAAsCAMAAAApWqozAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAAAFzUkdCAK7OHOkAAAAMUExURczMzPf399fX1+bm5mzY9AMAAADiSURBVDjLvZXbEsMgCES5/P8/t9FuRVCRmU73JWlzosgSIIZURCjo/ad+EQJJB4Hv8BFt+IDpQoCx1wjOSBFhh2XssxEIYn3ulI/6MNReE07UIWJEv8UEOWDS88LY97kqyTliJKKtuYBbruAyVh5wOHiXmpi5we58Ek028czwyuQdLKPG1Bkb4NnM+VeAnfHqn1k4+GPT6uGQcvu2h2OVuIf/gWUFyy8OWEpdyZSa3aVCqpVoVvzZZ2VTnn2wU8qzVjDDetO90GSy9mVLqtgYSy231MxrY6I2gGqjrTY0L8fxCxfCBbhWrsYYAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC); display:block; height:44px; margin:0 auto -44px; position:relative; top:-22px; width:44px;"></div></div> <p style=" margin:8px 0 0 0; padding:0 4px;"> <a href="https://www.instagram.com/p/BFcIv4ljI2i/" style=" color:#000; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; line-height:17px; text-decoration:none; word-wrap:break-word;" target="_blank">Still celebrating an historical season with the team. It was a great ride!!! #sundayfunday #madmonday</a></p> <p style=" color:#c9c8cd; font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; line-height:17px; margin-bottom:0; margin-top:8px; overflow:hidden; padding:8px 0 7px; text-align:center; text-overflow:ellipsis; white-space:nowrap;">A photo posted by Borisdiaw (@diawboris) on <time style=" font-family:Arial,sans-serif; font-size:14px; line-height:17px;" datetime="2016-05-15T19:28:24+00:00">May 15, 2016 at 12:28pm PDT</time></p></div></blockquote>
    <script async defer src="//platform.instagram.com/en_US/embeds.js"></script>
     
  5. Harden's beard

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    People should stop referring to Kawhi as a superstar. If you cannot individually carry your team's offense when the ball stops moving, and almost completely disappear during 4Qs in a crucial series like this, that ain't no superstar. It means there is a huge hole in your game, that you need to be surrounded by great passers on every position and a system built upon the principles of motion offense in order for you to play at the highest level.

    There is a double standard when it comes to Kawhi Leonard. People want to excuse him from all the critical comments that naturally follow when your team fails to reach WCF for two years in a row, because SAS plays more team ball than anyone else, so it's not all about Kawhi, it's a systematic issue. Well, by that same line of reasoning, maybe he shouldn't have received all the glory and praise that was thrown in his way for the success that Spurs had in the regular season. Being a superstar cuts both ways, and if Kawhi can't be held to the same standard as all the other superstars in this league, maybe that means we should reassess his overall value.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. Posterized

    Posterized New Member

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    Why are you acting as if Kawhi played badly this series? He still averaged 23ppg on 48%, while holding Westbrook to 37% shooting for the series, yet westbrook gets a pass becuase his team won. Kawhis excellence has never been about volume scoring or one man offense but rather very good all around offense with tremendous defensive ability.

    Fact is he was one of two players on his team who could score the ball with any consistency the entire series. The spurs bench and role players got outplayed by OKCs while Kanter and Adams dominated them on the boards and that was the difference, it was much less due to the stars on either team than the narrative would have you believe.
     
    #87 Posterized, May 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2019
  7. mac2yao

    mac2yao Member

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    That's a weird definition of choking--the Warriors choked 9 games this regular season? They clearly played worse in those 9 games that they lost. You can play worse due to choking (which is essentially a mental issue) or you can play worse due to random variation or due to adjustments you haven't seen.

    Some amount of all of those is probably the case. I think Aldridge is a pretty common choke artist. He's invisible as often as he's a force in the playoffs. I doubt Duncan or Leonard choked...I think they just happened to have some bad games at a bad time, against a very talented opponent that found the right adjustment. It's not like they lost to one of the bottom four seeds...they lost to a team that would be a title contender in many other years.
     
  8. Posterized

    Posterized New Member

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    Why are you acting as if Kawhi played badly this series? He still averaged 23ppg on 48%, while holding Westbrook to 37% shooting for the series, yet westbrook gets a pass becuase his team won. Kawhis excellence has never been about volume scoring or one man offense but rather very good all around offense with tremendous defensive ability.

    Fact is he was one of two players on his team who could score the ball with any consistency the entire series. The spurs bench and role players got outplayed by OKCs while Kanter and Adams dominated them on the boards and that was the difference, it was much less due to the stars on either team than the narrative would have you believe.
     
    #89 Posterized, May 16, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2019
  9. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    Anyone still think SAS choked now after seeing Thunder own GSW and do the very same thing to them. This defense is doing it. OKC is taking away weakside motion options from these two great teams who use it to dismantle teams that overplay them.

    SAS was out-coached, plain and simple. And now Kerr has his work cut out for him.
     
  10. LosPollosHermanos

    Supporting Member

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    1000000% exactly. I said this after the first game.


    Chuck has been on the money too.
     
  11. the shark

    the shark Member

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    In roslolian's mind GS choked. I mean how else can you explain it? :eek:
     
  12. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    Couldn't agree more.
     
  13. ReliantTexan

    ReliantTexan Member

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    Why are you acting as if Kawhi had a bad series? He averaged 23 ppg on 48% while being the primary defender on Westbrook who averaged 25 ppg on 37% shooting for the series. But i Guess Westbrook gets a pass because his team won?

    This difference in this series was much less due to Leonard and Aldridge getting outplayed by KD and Russell(as the narrative would have you believe) than it was Kanter and Adams dominating the spurs on the boards and the spurs bench and role players getting outplayed by OKCs.
     
  14. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Cav against OKC would be a dream Final

    :p
     
  15. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    What's was his excuse last year? They went out in the 1st round. The guy NEVER gets criticism when he loses when other guys get killed for losing. Hell Harden takes a lot of heat despite playing with less talent and a subpar coach. Kawhi consistently gets a pass for series losses despite having a deep squad and a Hall of Fame coach.If you're going to take the lead you have to take the blame.
     
  16. Harden's beard

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    Putting up just 22~23 points per game when your team was struggling to score is not good enough. 22ppg on 48% shooting is a Pippen-esque number. As the main go-to-guy of the franchise, you gotta be more productive than that. Iverson shot below 40% but his team still went to the finals. It's not always about efficiency, raw production also matters. Not to mention that Kawhi was an absolute no show in 4Qs and clutch time. He disappeared when it mattered the most.

    In the games against OKC, there were several stretches during which SAS just couldn't seemed to put the ball into the basket. That's because Kawhi failed to lead his team offensively when the ball stopped moving. Individual offensive talent is probably the most important marker in being a superstar; just go through the list of the past MVPs, great offensive players easily outnumber great defensive players. Of course it's better to be good at both, but when it comes down to it, Ben Wallace is not going to win an MVP whereas players like Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash will.

    SAS lost not because their defensive scheme broke down, but because they couldn't execute offensively as a team. When that happens, superstars need to step up and do whatever is necessary to get his team out of the rut, and if that means taking more difficult shots which would end up hurting your shooting percentages, so be it. Look at Durant and WB's FG% in this year's playoffs, it's pretty terrible. But they are still winning, due to their raw production, not efficiency.
     
  17. ReliantTexan

    ReliantTexan Member

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    Before this season no one was putting Kawhi on the same level as those other guys. You want to talk criticism, before this year most posters thought of Kawhi as merely a system player who was a slightly better version of Trevor Ariza.
     
  18. rocketsballin

    rocketsballin Member

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    no they just suck
     
  19. TEXNIFICENT

    TEXNIFICENT Member

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    Actually, this "superstar " label has been placed on Kawhi for several years now. He's been called MVP, LeBron stopper, and etc, when things are going well. But he gets a complete pass when they don't. It is a l what it is.
     
  20. heypartner

    heypartner Member

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    He hasn't been called an MVP candidate until this year.

    His offense went up a notch this year. I believe he is a superstar, because he's the DPOY. He is a "LeBron stopper" as much as anyone. He plays defense at a HOF level for a wing. It's noticeably better defense to elite wing defenders like Ariza and Battier. He's got freak athleticism to go with superb defensive skills and IQ together with sheer determination and effort for 48 minutes.

    But I also agree that he isn't an elite offensive player. Great offense, but not elite. Combined offense and defense he is a superstar for sure, though.

    imo, he's not getting criticism as failing SAS, because he played well within the system. It would be criticism of Pops to say Kawhi didn't take over on some key possessions vs going to Parker over and over. Maybe he could have but wasn't allowed.

    Maybe next year he starts getting the George treatment for not willing his team to victory on the offensive side. But that would require Pops to use him that way....which is what a lot of Spurs fans are yelling for right now.
     

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