"The probability of shaq being able to hold Hakeem in check is greater than the other way around purely cuz of shaq's strengh...PERIOD...Hakeem has his moves and quickness but Shaq's dunk has a greater probability than hakeems long fadaway everytime..." -Actually, I don't think either would be able to stop the other. Shaq would overpower Hakeem. Hakeem would get some steals and ball strips with his cat quick hands, but for the most part Shaq would back him in and get point blank shots. However, keep in mind Shaq has put on about 30 pounds since 95. Hakeem's quickness and footwork would completely destroy Shaquille defensively. You watch in the WCF, even David Robinson is going to expose Shaquille's slow footedness on Defense. I think if you took Hakeem of 93-95 vs. Shaq now and let them go one on one, each would put up 35-40 points against the other. But Hakeem's superior overall Defense gives him an edge as an overall player. Watch closely: Shaq should be not on the All Defensive teams. The man is not in Hakeem's league defensively, not even close. ------------------ Get Cato out of there...
No one said that. Learn to read and comprehend. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
Shaq's playing weight is 340 pounds now, and I think he was heavier in beginning of the season. ------------------
That's a key point. I think Hakeem was vastly more talented than Shaq in 95. Shaq has improved all aspects of his game (other than FT%) since then, always adding elements to his offensive game. He is better, but still not as talented as Dream was in his heyday. But it doesn't matter. A lot of Dream's moves were developed to compensate for his size. He was always a bit of a tweener. He's listed as 7-0, but he's not really that tall. He had to play in the paint againt guys who were almost always bigger (and often stronger) than he was and had to compensate. And did, brilliantly. But Shaq is another matter. No one -- not even Wilt -- was bigger and stronger than Shaq. He doesn't need the finesse that Hakeem had. As long as the league allows certain things, like palming (Iverson, etc.) extra steps on a drive (Jordan, etc.) and lowering your shoulder into the opposing center (Shaq, etc.) he can use his power to score without finessing anyone. Personally, I'd love to see Shaq and Dream play in their primes. Hakeem's talent differential would show, but so would Shaq's size and strength advantage. He's got 2-3" and 60+ pounds on Hakeem, folks! I'd also love to see Shaq play in a league with several outstanding centers. Today, Shaq is the only outstanding center in his prime. How would he have fared against Malone, Thurmond, Gilmore (all serious bruisers), let alone Kareem, Wilt, or Russell? We'll never know, of course. Stats mean nothing by themselves. You can't compare players across generations, because they didn't play against the same competiton. There's no baseline for comparison. That said, yes, Hakeem did dominate like this. Any of you pups old enough to remember his 49 point, 26 rebound game in the 93 playoffs? Or the way he wore down Kareem to the point Sports Illustrated described the Lakers front line as saying "no mas"? ------------------ If you don't remember the ABA, you don't know basketball. [This message has been edited by ricealum (edited May 15, 2001).]
Dr. of Dunk, Hakeem always had a high number of turnovesr every game, series and year so anyone who says Dream traveled every dreamshake has no knowledge of the game. Hakeem was in critcal foul trouble a lot and in big games the same cant be said about Shaq. Shaq not only gets away with obvious travels gets away with obvious hacks. The way the refs call the games for Shaq and Hakeem is not even close and if you think they are than you just dont know what your talking about. If Hakeem got away with the garbage that clown Shaq got away with he would have had multiple 50 point games so what your saying is utter nonsense and a discredit to Hakeems battles against the refs over the years. Never in like will you see Shaq break the all time record for most field goals made in a game without a foul shot and that is something Hakeem did. Check your facts before you come on here with this false info. ------------------
Where did anyone say "Hakeem traveled every dreamshake..."? Once you answer that, we can discuss. Until then you're defending an argument that doesn't even exist. Try to stay on planet earth guys, I'm scared when you start drifting off into the nether-realm pulling quotes out of your asses. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
.I wonder how great Shaq daddy would have been if he would have waited until his late teens to start playing basketball. Dream has a rear talent that I'm not even sure Jordan could have matched. To get to the original question: Did Dream dominate like this? My answer is Yes. Even more so than Shaq. 1. Shaq is more dominant next to the basket where he can overpower you and dunk. Although Dreams rare mix of speed, quickness and power made him one of the most dominant of all time in the paint I still give the edge to Shaq here. 2. Dream is more dominant in every other phase of the game. a. His large arsenal of moves made it hard to predict how he would take his shots particularly in the closing moments of a game. We all know that Shaq is not very effective if you can make him catch the ball out of the paint. Also his poor free throw shooting has made the Lakers vulnerable to the hak-a-Shaq defensive. How many times did we see Hakeem taken out of a game because of poor free throw shooting? Uh...0. b. How many times has Shaq been recognized as the premier defensive players in the league? Hakeem was defensive player of the year on more than one occasion and could alter the course of a game with just his defense. He dominated on the defensive end of the court in a way that Shaq only dreams about. 3. Intangibles. Big advantage to Dream. Dream is with out a doubt the most athletic center to ever play the game. Never before had the NBA seen a player finish among the leaders in as many major stats as Hakeem did year in and year out. He was always in the top ten in points, rebounds, blocks, steals and FG%. During his prime the Dream was focused on basketball. Shaq is just as focused on Hollywood as he is on winning his next championship. Finally we have all had the good fortune to see Dream evolve his game from someone that dominated on pure athletic ability and raw talent to someone that dominated with skill and polished talent that could make the league MVP look like a lost girl scout on the basketball court. Shaq imho has had many advantages over Dream. He grew up playing basketball and was probably playing before Hakeem. Shaq came into the league already anointed the air to MJ and the next great center. When Dream was drafted ahead of MJ and Sam Bowie the Rockets had people scratching their heads. No one outside of Houston ever thought Hakeem would achieve this kind of greatness. There are three visions that I will always see when I think of Hakeem: The first was early in his career when he stole the ball and then very awkwardly went down the court almost slapping the ball because he barely new how to dribble on his way to a dunk. A man that could dominate on pure athleticism. The second was also early in his career when he took off from the free throw line to get an offensive rebound and then slammed the ball in the hoop on the way down. I've still never seen anything that compares to it. And the last is the Dream shake against David Robinson in the 95 WCF. Nothing but grace and skill. All poor D-Robb (the leagues mvp) could do was watch in amazement. My oppinion may be biased but I believe that Shaq still has a long way to go before he acheives the kind of dominance that was acheived by the Dream. ------------------
That's just disgusting. And you call yourself a fan of Hakeem's. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
Dream was far more skilled, no doubt. The one thing that I believe makes Dream a more impressive player beyond all of the offensive/defensive comparisons, is who Dream was able to win a title with. The talent level around Shaq during his final years in Orlando and his days now in LA was far and away superior to anything Hakeem ever played with. Could Shaq have won a title with Kenny Smith, Otis Thorpe, and Vernon? We already know Hakeem could. Any doubt Hakeem could win a title with Kobe Bryant and Ron Harper? Not really. Hakeem was every bit the one man gang that Shaq has been the last two games. Hakeem played against the dominant Lakers and Celtics of the 80's. He played the early 90's Blazers teams. He played the Bulls, albeit twice a year, and beat them often. He played against Magic, Bird, Jordan, Drexler, Malone, Flopton, Robinson, Ewing, and Barkley all in their primes. The talent level that Shaq is facing compared to what Dream faced is just no comparison. ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
There's one point everyone seems to be missing when they say that Dream went through better centers than Shaq... Which teams always gave Dream and the Rockets the most trouble during Dream's really great years. Answer: Jazz and Sonics Who were their centers? Jazz, not sure, but nobody any good. The Sonics, pretty sure it was Sam Perkins. So my point is that when you say Shaq isn't doing it against top players, I'd have to say that that doesn't really matter much, if the opposing team has the right defensive approach. The Rox & Dream were frustrated many times by a Seattle team with no real center. Now I'm not saying that facing Duncan and Robinson won't be tougher, it will, but Pollard is not that bad at D, he's actually a tough defender, he's just overwhelmed by Shaq. Anyway, as much as I'd like to give it to Dream I'm going to call it a draw right now. We'll see after this next series with the Spurs. If he can handle Robinson/Duncan than Shaq gets the edge. ------------------
"Which teams always gave Dream and the Rockets the most trouble during Dream's really great years. Answer: Jazz and Sonics" -Wrong. Sonics, yes. Jazz, no way. The Rockets owned the Jazz: Beat them BOTH championship years in the playoffs with Hakeem averaging about 35 ppg in both series. The Jazz started to give the Rockets trouble in 97, beating Houston in 97 and 98 in the playoffs. By then, Hakeem was about 60-70 percent of his old self. How else do you explain him getting blocked by Ostertag in the closing minutes of Game 5 over and over again in 98? What a low point, he was WAY out of his prime by then. -After watching Shaquille this year, I don't think he is going to DOMINATE Robinson like Hakeem did in 95. If he does though, then this discussion of Hakeem vs. Shaq gets a LOT more interesting. ------------------ Get Cato out of there...
"The Jazz started to give the Rockets trouble in 97, beating Houston in 97 and 98 in the playoffs. By then, Hakeem was about 60-70 percent of his old self. How else do you explain him getting blocked by Ostertag in the closing minutes of Game 5 over and over again in 98? What a low point, he was WAY out of his prime by then." Ok, went back and looked at the stats, and you are right about us whipping the Jazz in our two championship years, but the series in 94-95 was VERY close--we won 3-2 first round. I was at those games, and while we had the Jazz number (which I loved) they certainly gave us a tough matchup. If I remember correctly Dream was incredible and 'Kenny The Jet' (anyone know where that came from?) bombed them with threes. Anyway, my basic point is that a team can be a good defensive one without a dominant center, much as the Sonics did, by denying him the ball, fronting him, and using good weak side help. -we'll all find out soon just how dominant the Shaq is, because the Spurs will be a good measuring stick. -btw, couldn't agree more with your take on our other 'big' man, he's gotta go. ------------------
Who were their centers? Jazz, not sure, but nobody any good. The Sonics, pretty sure it was Sam Perkins. So my point is that when you say Shaq isn't doing it against top players, I'd have to say that that doesn't really matter much, if the opposing team has the right defensive approach. The Rox & Dream were frustrated many times by a Seattle team with no real center. Now I'm not saying that facing Duncan and Robinson won't be tougher, it will, but Pollard is not that bad at D, he's actually a tough defender, he's just overwhelmed by Shaq. The Jazz had Mark Eaton. The Sonics didn't really have a center, but they had the Glove, Nate, Kemp and other athletic defenders. Scott Pollard isn't a bad defender, but the Kings defensive scheme against Shaq is weak. They rarely double, so the comparison with the Seattle teams is weak. The Sonics were all on top of Dream once he touched the ball, actually while the ball was still in the air. :-( ------------------
The reason the Sonics were such a thorn in the side of the Rockets was because of there outside game. Dale Ellis, Tom Chambers and Sam Perkins could all hit shots from the outside. The Rockets could go toe to toe with them in the paint but could never answer their perimeter players. The Sonics never respected the Rockets perimeter game, whenever the ball went into Hakeem the entire Sonic team would collapse on Hakeem leaving people like Sleepy Floyed and Steve Harris to miss wide open shots. ------------------
If Hakeem had Kobe he never would have been triple teamed like he was because Kobe would have gone off for 40/50 points a game if Seattle played Hakeem like that. Hakeem never ever played with anyone as good as Kobe. ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient.
I have to give Hakeem the edge.. Shaq is a great player though, but I didn't wanna miss a second of Hakeem playin' in his prime, where you just don't get that excited watching shaq, and Dr. of Dunk, you have some good points on Shaq's dominance, but dreamshake is a perfectly good move, sure he walked sometimes but everybody does steps sometimes, even on layups, I didn't see how you could use that to justify for the stuff they don't call on shaq, seems like you're a huge fan of shaq, which is kool 'cause he's a great guy, but anyways, I give my vote to Hakeem.. peace ------------------ against all odds
Me either, that's why I didn't. I like Shaq, but I'm a bigger fan of Hakeem's. I'm the biggest fan of reality, though. If I think Shaq's offensively more dominant than Hakeem and I think Hakeem's the better overall player. I'd also rather have Hakeem as my center if I were drafting one of them at their prime. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
