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Dictator Chavez steals second Hilton hotel in Venezuela

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Oct 15, 2009.

  1. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Seriously, that's worthy of a thread in its own right. Mubarak is an aged, ruthless b*stard and a dictator ruling a sham of a democracy. It is no coincidence that many Egyptians, those who can manage it, have come to our country.
     
  2. AroundTheWorld

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    I guess the thought is that the alternative might be even worse.
     
  3. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Sure, that's why we (the US government) support Mubarak, and prop up him and Egypt with the second largest chunk of aid that we give out, after Israel. It's to "keep the lid on" in Egypt, because the alternative is seen as an unstable and possibly radical Islamic republic. I understand why we do it, but it has happened in the past that "keeping the lid on" simply leads to a bigger explosion and even more detriment to the US when that lid blows off and everything goes beserk. See Iran for a perfect example.
     
  4. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    The problem with these countries is that, now they have an incentive to keep radical groups alive to secure that financial aid.
     
  5. weslinder

    weslinder Member

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    Now Chavez is stealing food from producers because his great move forward with subsidized grocery stores :rolleyes: is failing miserably, and he needs someone else to blame.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/37786852

    Maggie Thatcher was wrong. The real problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of producers to nationalize and ruin.
     
  6. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    NPR was reporting a new RAND group study on aid to Pakistan and it basically came to that conclusion.. That the US isn't getting much in return for aiding Pakistan for as much as they are fighting extremists there are more extremists coming out of Pakistan.
     
  7. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Member

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    A graph of income vs economic freedom.

    [​IMG]

    Chavez is definitely reducing economic freedom and the direct result will be less income for the Venezuelan people. He acts like he is a champion for the poor, but he is going to starve them.

    Here is the hard data for the graph.

    Country EcFree2008 Income
    Australia 82 38784
    Austria 70 37912
    Belgium 71.5 35238
    Canada 80.2 39078
    Cyprus 71.3 26919
    Czech 68.5 24643
    Denmark 79.2 36845
    Finland 74.8 36195
    France 65.4 33058
    Germany 71.2 35374
    Greece 60.1 29356
    HK 90.3 43957
    Iceland 76.5 36902
    Ireland 82.4 41850
    Israel 66.1 27905
    Italy 62.5 31283
    Japan 72.5 34129
    Korea 67.9 27658
    Luxembourg* 75.2 78922
    Malta 66 23500
    New Zealand 80.2 27260
    Holland 76.8 40961
    Norway* 69 58714
    Portugal 64.3 23254
    Singapore 87.4 49321
    Slovenia 60.6 27860
    Spain 69.5 31674
    Sweden 70.4 36961
    Switzerland 79.7 42415
    Taiwan 71 29500
    UK 79.5 35468
    USA 80.6 46356
     
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  8. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    There are plenty of perfectly viable socialist countries in Europe. The problem is the man and his ego.
     
  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    If I glance at this thread title quickly it looks like it says "Dictator Chavez steals Vuvuzela."

    I would support Chavez completely if he could get rid of the Vuvuzelas..
     
  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    [​IMG]
     
  11. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I read this today in the Austin American-Statesman and eagerly await the excuses:


    Diehl: Defying Chávez's iron fist
    Jackson Diehl, The Washington Post

    During one of his interminable appearances on national television, Hugo Chávez demanded to know last month why Guillermo Zuloaga, the majority owner of Venezuela's last opposition television station, was not in jail. "How is it possible that he can accuse me of such things and walk free?" the strongman demanded.

    The answer is fairly simple: Zuloaga's statements about Chávez were hardly criminal, and years of government investigations had turned up nothing else prosecutors could plausibly use against him. But that, of course, was not the response of Chavez's henchmen. Within days of the broadcast, an investigation against the businessman that had been abandoned was reopened; charges were filed. On June 11, a judge ordered Zuloaga arrested and confined to one of the country's high-security prisons.


    By then, the 67-year-old owner of Globovision, an all-news channel that is now the only alternative in Venezuela to government propaganda, was no longer in the country. Like Globovision's minority owner, another businessman whose bank was taken over by the government three days after the arrest warrant, Zuloaga sought refuge in the United States. Last week he and his son, whose arrest was also ordered, were in Washington, where they were considering making a request for asylum.

    "It never crossed my mind that I would be forced to live someplace besides Venezuela," Zuloaga told me in an interview. "But I can't be of much help to anyone if I am in a high-security prison. And I think it's public knowledge that all of the institutions of justice in Venezuela are controlled by the president."

    Zuloaga's own cases offers vivid proof of that. Judges who have dared to rule in his favor have been summarily fired; charges have been blatantly concocted to serve Chávez's whim. The case that forced him into exile concerns not the criticism the caudillo complained of but a claim that the broadcaster, who also owns a car dealership, was guilty of "hoarding" his inventory — a charge so ludicrous that Chávez's own attorney general had dropped it, before scrambling to revive it after the televised diktat.


    The attack on Globovision betrays Chávez's desperation. Alone in Latin America, Venezuela's economy continues to plunge sharply downward; inflation is at 30 percent; violent crime is soaring. Zuloaga's journalists have devoted much of their attention in recent weeks to a scandal concerning the spoilage of tens of thousands of tons of food imported by the regime — at a time when shortages of basic goods are widespread.

    Worst of all for Chávez, an election — for the National Assembly — is scheduled for Sept. 26. Five years ago a foolish opposition boycott turned the congress into a rubber stamp for Chávez. This year, having hammered together a unity list, the anti-Chávez forces think they could win a majority of the seats. That's certainly what polls show. The outstanding question is what the government will do — beyond a district gerrymander that has already been imposed — to skew or steal the election.

    Silencing Globovision appears to be the beginning of Chávez's answer. "Legally there is no way the government can close Globovision," Zuloaga said. "But that doesn't mean there won't be an arbitrary decision. Chávez has been trying in any way he can to control the screens of Globovision. They want to inspire fear more than they want to win votes, because they know they have run out of money to buy votes with."

    The crackdown is not without risk. Globovision, seen in more than 2 million Venezuelan homes, is popular. The government's shutdown of another opposition broadcaster, RCTV, in 2007 provoked nationwide demonstrations and gave birth to an opposition student movement. Already, the arrest order against Zuloaga has caused considerable international condemnation, including from the U.N. rapporteur on free expression and the State Department, which called it "the latest example of the government of Venezuela's continuing assault on the freedom of the press."

    Zuloaga says Globovision will go on, "as if we are going to be on the air forever." He, meanwhile, will hope that Chávez cannot do the same. "I really believe what is happening in Venezuela is unsustainable," he said. "I don't think people can accept that the quality of life continues to go down the drain. How can that keep on happening?"

    http://www.statesman.com/opinion/diehl-defying-chavezs-iron-fist-798973.html
     
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  12. glynch

    glynch Member

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    I don't know the details. Certainly much of what has been written in the American corporate press has been lies about Chavez. You choose to believe this. If I have the time I will attempt to determine what is true as opposed to what the Post wants you to hear. The Post has turned into practically a neo-con newspaper with its cheerleading for the Iraq War and continuing occupation of Afghanistan.

    AGGH is is tough work to try to fact check the mainstream media.

    As a start I googled "Jackson Diehl" . Counterpunch which certainly has a point of view has this to say about Diehl from a 2006 article. Apparently he is famous for being biased against Chavez.

    If I have more time I will work on it further in an attempt to find the truth. Hey, help me out. Maybe you will convince me that Chavez is a dictator and we should send the volunteer military to make it a democracy.

    ***********
    April 18 , 2006

    Jackson Diehl: Worse Than Page Six?
    The Washington Post vs. Venezuela
    By ERIC WINGERTER

    Anyone looking to keep up to date with the current talking points for the Venezuelan opposition need only follow the writings of Jackson Diehl in the Washington Post. As deputy editorial page editor, Diehl drafts the un-bylined editorials about President Hugo Chavez.

    When Diehl writes a particularly unsubstantiated column, the Post publishes his work on the right-hand side of the opinion page, thus minutely distancing his ravings from the official opinion of the paper.

    Over the years, progressive Venezuela watchers have come to regard Jackson Diehl Op-Eds as a sounding board for the urban legends and gossip promoted by Venezuela’s well-connected opposition leaders--sort of a Page Six for anti-Chavez innuendo. His columns have given mainstream credence to the ideas that the democratically elected president is actually a dictator, that a media law banning explicit sex on television is an act of political censorship, and that important literacy and health care programs are nothing more than a cynical attempt to buy votes from Venezuela’s unwashed masses.

    The power of a Post editorial is significant, and it is partly due to the work of Mr. Diehl that the storylines above, although easily refuted, have framed the discussion of Venezuela in the U.S. press.

    Diehl’s propensity for not letting facts get in the way of an anti-Chavez rant have often drawn the man well-merited and well documented rebuke.

    In the lead up to the 2004 recall referendum against Chavez, the Washington think tank Council On Hemispheric Affairs published a paper on the inaccuracies of Diehl’s coverage of Venezuela. “Shame on such a senior Washington Post figure,” COHA wrote, “for dousing Chávez with such flammable fuel which, if ignited, could further seriously undermine the U.S.’ professed intention to consolidate democracy throughout the hemisphere and destroy what little standing this country has today throughout the region.”

    In December of last year, the media watchdog group Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR) took Diehl to task for publishing unsubstantiated rumors about President Chavez’s supposed funding of leftist movements in the hemisphere.
    ......
    http://www.counterpunch.org/wingerter04182006.html
     
  13. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Here you go, glynch:

    UN attacks Chavez for bid to arrest head of TV network

    By Stephanie Nebehay in Geneva
    Friday, 18 June 2010

    A UN human rights investigator called on Venezuela yesterday to withdraw the arrest warrant against the head of the opposition Globovision television network, declaring that it had no right to silence critics.

    Frank La Rue, UN special rapporteur on freedom of expression, said that the "harassment" of Guillermo Zuloaga was symptomatic of what he called the continuous deterioration of freedom of the press in the Latin American country.

    "No government in the world has the right to silence critics or those who oppose the state with criminal proceedings," Mr La Rue said. He cited fears that the warrant was "politically motivated, aimed solely at silencing Zuloaga".

    Mr Zuloaga is a fugitive after the attorney general issued an arrest warrant charging him with usury last week. An arrest warrant was also issued for his son, Guillermo Zuloaga Siso, according to Mr La Rue, who called for it to be lifted as well.

    "This is not the first time that staff members of Globovision, including Mr Zuloaga, are criminally prosecuted because of the exercise of their right to freedom of expression," said Mr La Rue, an independent expert from Guatemala who reports to the United Nations Human Rights Council.

    On Monday, the government took control of Banco Federal, which is owned by another Globovision director and handles its payroll, citing liquidity problems and risk of fraud, and leaving the station's employees in fear for their livelihoods.

    President Hugo Chavez suggested on Wednesday that he might take control of shares in Globovision television station – the last major broadcaster in the Opec member to have kept up its staunchly anti-Chavez stance.


    Critics say President Chavez is taking Venezuela down an increasingly authoritarian route, stifling dissent and nationalising much of the economy. Supporters say he is the victim of propaganda and a US-led campaign of vilification.

    Known for its partisan coverage, Globovision has been an important platform for political opponents of Mr Chavez, who has substantially increased the number of pro-government newspapers and broadcasters since he took power 11 years ago.

    Mr La Rue reiterated a request, made in 2003 and again in 2009, for an invitation from Mr Chavez's administration to visit Venezuela to make an in-depth assessment of the state of freedoms of expression and the press. "This request regrettably remains unanswered," he said.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...bid-to-arrest-head-of-tv-network-2003614.html

    ................

    The Venezuelan authorities have issued an arrest warrant for the owner of a private television channel fiercely critical of President Hugo Chavez.

    Prosecutors accuse Guillermo Zuloaga, who owns the Globovision channel, of business irregularities.

    Mr Zuloaga's supporters say the warrant is an effort to silence him. The government says all due legal procedures have been followed.

    Opposition groups accuse Mr Chavez of trying to control the media.

    In what may have been his last interview before going into hiding, Mr. Zuloaga spoke to Stephen Sackur.

    Watch the full interview with Guillermo Zuloaga on HARDtalk on Monday 14th June 2010. The programme also includes an exclusive interview with President Hugo Chavez.

    (The video is interesting to watch, as Zuloaga is asked some tough questions, which I thought he answered very well, especailly considering the pressure he was obviously under.)

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/14/1729385/globovision-chief-vows-to-stay.html

    ............

    TV station chief vows to stay critical of Hugo Chávez. Facing arrest at home, the president of Globovisión TV was in Miami where he said he will keep pressuring President Chávez.

    Guillermo Zuloaga has no plans of laying low as an international fugitive.
    Facing arrest in Venezuela, the president of Globovisión -- the nation's last TV station openly critical of the government -- said he'll travel the world and continue pressing the Hugo Chávez administration as the country gears up for legislative elections on Sept. 26.

    ``We would be critical of whoever was in power,'' said Zuloaga, who was in Miami on Tuesday. ``But this government has been a complete failure.''

    Venezuela has one of the highest murder rates in the Americas, the steepest inflation in the region and is saddled with a shrinking economy. Despite reaping billions in oil wealth over the last decade, infrastructure is poor, and power outages and food shortages have become a way of life, Zuloaga said.

    ``The Venezuelan population is fed up and everybody is waiting for the [legislative] elections,'' he said. ``The pressure on the government is going to be higher and higher and higher.''


    Pressure on Zuloaga, 68, peaked in March when he was briefly detained for criticizing the government during an event in Aruba. In June, the courts dusted off a year-old case and ordered his arrest on charges that he and his son hoarded automobiles at their Toyota dealership in a bid to drive up prices.

    Zuloaga said there were only 20 cars in question, all of which had been paid for and were awaiting delivery. The government's true aim, he said, was to silence Globovisión. Last week, Zuloaga took his case to the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights in Washington, D.C. As President Chávez has pursued his ``21st century socialism,'' he has clashed with the press even as he has poured resources into state-run media. In 2002, he accused Zuloaga and other media barons of backing a failed coup against him.


    The government began dismantling RCTV -- one of Venezuela's largest television stations -- in 2007.

    In March, the Inter-American Press Association accused the government of leaning on advertisers, manipulating the exchange rate and creating regulations aimed at stifling dissent.

    ``Faced with the Chávez government's economic sabotage, the independent press in Venezuela is on the verge of collapsing and disappearing,'' the organization said in a report.


    Zuloaga said he plans to keep running Globovisión while in exile. ``For the moment,'' he said, ``I'm a citizen of the world.''

    http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/07/14/1729385/globovision-chief-vows-to-stay.html

    .................

    2nd UPDATE: Venezuela Criticized Over Arrest Order For TV Boss

    By Dan Molinski Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES CARACAS (Dow Jones)--The U.S. State Department said it disapproves of an arrest warrant issued by President Hugo Chavez's government for the owner of Venezuela's last remaining television station that is critical of his regime.

    "This is the latest example of the government of Venezuela's continuing assault on the freedom of the press," State Department spokesman Philip Crowley said Monday. He added that the U.S. asks the Venezuelan government "to uphold the principle that respect for human rights, including freedom of the press, is essential to representative democracies."


    Various groups have also come out in protest of the Venezuelan warrant for the arrest of Guillermo Zuloaga, owner of Globovision, suggesting the station was being unfairly targeted because of its frequent opposition to Chavez.

    "If the government is using Zuloaga's prosecution as a pretext to silence and intimidate the only remaining critical broadcaster, the rights of citizens to be informed will be seriously restricted and Venezuela's democracy will suffer yet another blow,"
    the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists said Monday on its website.

    The Attorney General's office issued the arrest warrant Friday for Zuloaga after reopening a year-old case in which the influential businessman was accused of usury. Zuloaga also owns some car dealerships, and the government accused him in May 2009 of keeping 24 Toyota vehicles off the market on the expectation that prices would spike and the vehicles could be later sold for a higher price.

    At the time, Zuloaga denied the charges, and said it was a case of "judicial terrorism" by the Chavez government.

    As of late Monday morning, Zuloaga hadn't been arrested.

    Edith Ruiz, director of institutional relations at Caracas-based Globovision, told Dow Jones Newswires she doesn't know the whereabouts of Zuloaga.

    She added, however, that his lawyers on Monday were at the prosecutor's office to review the case to understand why it was decided to issue an arrest warrant so long after the fact.

    "The case was practically closed, because they apparently didn't find any evidence, so the lawyers want to figure out why [the case] has been re-opened," Ruiz said.



    Meanwhile, in a case that's potentially related to the Zuloaga case, the government seized control Monday of a mid-sized bank called Banco Federal, claiming the bank was not meeting its liquidity requirements.

    Observers note that the bank's president, Nelson Mezerhane, is a major investor in Globovision, and wonder if that connection is the real reason the bank was seized. Bank officials claim they were meeting liquidity requirements and call the government takeover "an error."

    Mezerhane, like his business partner Zuloaga, has been known to make critical remarks of Chavez in public.


    During his 11 years in power, Chavez has been frequently accused of trying to silence his critics by trumping up charges against them so he can have them arrested and put in jail.

    A former state governor, Oswaldo Alvarez Paz, was arrested in March for saying on a television show that Venezuela has become a haven for drug traffickers. Chavez said such statements break a law that prohibits "spreading false information" or making any incendiary comments deemed threatening to peace and stability.

    In another case, the government last week launched an investigation into a website called Noticiero Digital, which is often critical of the government. In ordering the investigation, Chavez said the website was frequently writing about the possibility of military coup plots against him, and said such talk "can't be permitted."

    The usury charge isn't the only time Zuloaga has been targeted by the government.

    In March, he was arrested and held for several hours in connection with making allegedly "offensive and disrespectful" statements about Chavez on a television show. Rights groups and the Organization of American States had urged his release.

    Also, in June 2009, the police searched Zuloaga's home for hunting trophies that they said could be illegal under environmental protection laws.


    The recent arrests and arrest warrants come ahead of congressional elections in September. Chavez's ruling Socialist party aims to retain a majority of the seats in the main legislative body, the National Assembly.

    The elections are sure to be hotly contested, as the opposition hopes to capitalize at the ballot box on Venezuela's economic recession, galloping inflation, rampant crime and sporadic shortages of food, water and electricity.

    -By Dan Molinski, Dow Jones Newswires; 58-414-120-5738; dan.molinski@dowjones.com

    http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20100614-712368.html

    .............

    March 25, 2010
    Chávez Critic Is Arrested, Then Freed, in Venezuela


    By SIMON ROMERO

    CARACAS, Venezuela — Agents from Venezuela’s military intelligence agency on Thursday arrested Guillermo Zuloaga, the owner of the independent television network Globovisión and one of the country’s most influential critics of President Hugo Chávez, heightening concerns over an intensifying clampdown on news organizations and opposition political leaders.

    Mr. Zuloaga was released several hours later and told not to leave the country while the investigation continued. International human rights groups and the Organization of American States had pressed the government to release him.

    Attorney General Luisa Ortega said that Mr. Zuloaga had been arrested in connection with comments he made this month at an Inter American Press Association meeting in Aruba that were considered false and “offensive” to Mr. Chávez. Among other remarks at the meeting, Mr. Zuloaga pointedly criticized methods used by Mr. Chávez’s government to shut down news outlets, and was quoted as saying it meant the country lacked freedom of expression.

    The arrest of Mr. Zuloaga comes at a time when Mr. Chávez’s government is adopting an increasingly harsh approach to dealing with the president’s critics. Mr. Chávez, who is facing broad public ire over continuing electricity blackouts and a sharply contracting economy, recently pushed another critical television network, RCTV, off the airwaves.


    Mr. Chávez has also long clashed with Globovisión. Other private broadcasters tempered criticism of the president after lawmakers loyal to Mr. Chávez opened the way for sharp penalties on news outlets deemed to be inciting disorder. But Globovisión kept its anti-Chávez stance.

    “This is about the criminalization of opinion,” Carlos Ayala Corao, a leading rights lawyer here, said in televised comments. “It is an extremely grave matter.”

    The arrest of Mr. Zuloaga, carried out while he was preparing to board a plane to Bonaire, in the Dutch Antilles, followed the arrest this week of a high-profile opposition political figure for comments critical of Mr. Chávez’s government that had been broadcast on Globovisión.


    The politician, Oswaldo Álvarez Paz, a former governor of oil-rich Zulia State, said he supported claims by one of Spain’s top judges that Venezuelan officials had helped ETA, the armed Basque separatist group, train with leftist Colombian guerrillas.

    Mr. Álvarez Paz also said that Venezuela had been transformed into a center for drug trafficking in South America. That assertion has also been made repeatedly by the United States government and in independent media investigations.

    The authorities here charged Mr. Álvarez Paz with conspiracy and spreading false information.

    As for Mr. Zuloaga’s arrest, Ms. Ortega, the attorney general, said he faced prison terms of three to five months for comments considered offensive to the president, and of three to five years for the charge of divulging false information.

    In comments on Globovisión, Mr. Zuloaga described his arrest as “another abuse.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/world/americas/26venez.html

    ..............
     
  14. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Dude, the UN is a puppet of our all volunteer military.


    Duh!

    Seriously, Chavez apologists should stop propagating that an elected leader can't be a dictator. Hitler anyone? (not comparing what Chavez has done to Hitler)
     
  15. glynch

    glynch Member

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    I have read so much blatant propaganda from the WSJ, the Miami Herald and the NYT about Chavez, I am not impressed. Corporate America including the corporate media hates Chavez-- no surprise.

    Now the UN guy does make me think. If the claims are true that this is merely an attempt to close down opposition media it is very troubling. Don't forget how the UN was manipulated to harass Sadam, (I am not saying Sadam was a good guy). though ultimately the UN did not give total cover tothe the illegal Bush Iraq War so Bush and Blair were forced to do their attack without a UN mandate.

    Of course, if the opposition guy has really committed a crime he should be arrested and indicted and charged, media company or not. Otherwise you guys would be claiming Chavez tolerates corruption. As I have said before what is this guys background and if he was actively involved in the coup as many of the elite and media were it is certainly an extenuating circumstance that would not be permitted in our country either.

    It would also be interested to see if the same guys decrying that Chavez will not let the UN guy in are the types that usually complain about the UN on Israel and other matters. Are they the same guys who refused to accept UN claims that Chavez's elections have been fairly clean and his victories legit?

    Again the UN guy is possibly credible wrt to Chavez not letting him in to check for freedom of the press. Of course IIRC the UN or at least objective international observers wanted to monitor the US election during the 2nd Bush election and were refused. It would be interesting to see what the UN guy would actually find.
     
  16. AroundTheWorld

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    I really cannot believe how delusional you are with regard to Chavez. The truth is right in front of your eyes, yet you refuse to see it and come up with all these conspiracy theories about the "corporate media", etc.
     
  17. glynch

    glynch Member

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    I don't think it is that simple. I note a lack of facts or even analysis in your response.

    I do think that the corporate media does what is in its best financial interests pretty much like any other corporation in this day and age. So do you think that NBC/GE would not spin a story favorbly on nuclear energy if that is a major profti center for them? Is a corporation trying to make a profti by spinning a "conspiracy" in your mind. Talking about being naive.

    To be kind, I suppose for a middle of the road conservative the slant of the corporate media seems like common sense or just objective reporting.
     
  18. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    glynch, it is impossible to "win" with you on this issue, because you immediately discount damn near everything from any source that is critical of Chavez. It's like when I posted in the Deep Horizon thread about my anger at the slow initial response. No one really wanted to talk about it. I went to a bit of trouble finding a source who wrote an excellent column (in my opinion) about the subject in the San Francisco Chronicle, hardly a "corporate, right wing rag." The writer was an environmental activist, well respected and from the left, but people simply didn't care. The guy has filed a inquiry through the Freedom of Information Act to find out just what went on early in the disaster. Why? Because it is damned hard to find out the facts without doing so, which is rediculous. The reaction here from the left? Who cares? Why are we talking about that, when we should be focused on the now, as if it isn't possible to do several things at once in this country in a search for the truth.

    You? You are so focused on defending Chavez that it would take the equivalent of a ton of bricks falling on your head, maybe two or three times, to get you to even consider that the guy is a bad actor.
     
  19. glynch

    glynch Member

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  20. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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