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Dennis Rodman: LeBron James would be ‘average player’ in late ’80s or early ’90s

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by redhotrox, Jun 7, 2013.

  1. JMAD21

    JMAD21 Member

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    Hold on... So Lebron would be average, BUT the Heat have more talent than his Bulls had???

    Okay Dennis, okay!
     
  2. Puedlfor

    Puedlfor Contributing Member

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    It's weird how whenever people talk about comparing teams nowadays to teams of the 80s and 90s no one ever talks about the effect removing the illegal defense rule had on the game. Most good teams play defenses now that were completely illegal - the Bulls have practically made it their trademark. As a result, most good offenses have evolved to answer questions that teams from twenty or thirty years ago would never get asked. Put this Spurs team in the early 90s and their offensive movement and sophistication would be a class apart from the rest of the league and would completely befuddle defenses of that era.

    The second thing that seems weird is that people always talk about how current players would fit in offensively - but not defensively. Lebron James has played his entire career without being able to hand check perimeter players, with very limited contact allowed compared to what was allowed twenty years ago. Despite that, he's a truly terrifying defensive player - on and off the ball. Can you imagine what Lebron James would do on the defensive end if he was allowed to hand check people and get really physical on the perimeter?
     
    2 people like this.
  3. OTMax

    OTMax Member

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    I like Rodman, one of my favourite players of all time and you know what, he is probably very wrong about this, but at least he is honest. He is honest about his life, about how he was self destructive on purpose, how he feels about him being a father etc. Deep down, this guy is probably the softest person with the smallest heart. That's why he still puts up a huge front 90% of the time. He's still the attention 'w****' he was during his playing days, so part of it is to shock people, I'm sure. On a side note: Rodman never played Duncan, funny how he thinks they [Spurs] probably beat them [Bulls 97-98]. Dan Patrick said that was Duncan's rookie year - still amazes me how many sports guys make mistakes like this.
     
  4. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    This is where it becomes a circular argument, as I predicted in the post you responded to. We (cfnet) have had this argument many times before.

    It is NOT "pretty obvious that the rule changes has favored perimeter players" ... the fact there are no centers now as there were has been more obvious.

    don't bother me with this.

    Eliminating hand checking is completely offset by eliminating illegal defense. Anyone like you who says otherwise does not follow NBA defense strategies much.
     
  5. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    This is also not correct. Where did you get this from?

    First off, where is it said defenses nowadays are more effective.

    B, any scouting sophistication goes both ways.

    III The true answer is defenses grow throughout history, to beat the new offenses (players)...just like the NFL.

    Offensive players (not offensive schemes) but offensive players themselves, learn to beat defenses, then JVG and sorts adjust.

    That doesn't mean the current era adjustments could beat Magic Johnson, because Magic would just adjust, like he always did. And...and...a little known fact...the Laker's had a very awesome defense. So did the Celtics. And Jordan's last three rings also qualified as in the class of best defenses ever to win the title.

    This is just a silly argument.

    History of offenses (players) dictate the defensive adjustments. But that doesn't mean (as maybe it does in the NFL) that defensive strategies improve over time anymore than the Triangle does.

    Is it that hard to understand.
     
    #65 heypartner, Jun 8, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  6. PointForward

    PointForward Member

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    Rodman is a moron, there's not doubt about that.

    Now that I got that out of the way, let's be objective here. If you consider that hand checking was completely legal in that era, and ticky tacky "breathing" foul calls weren't given out like candy, it's not an outrageous statement to say that LeBron's effectiveness, or any of today's stars for that matter, would be greatly diminished if they played in that era.

    Considering this really puts into perspective MJ's greatness and makes me appreciate the great scorers of that era.
     
  7. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    and illegal defense was enforced...

    I don't want to get in the middle of this stupid MJ vs LeBron debate, but LeBron is playing in an era of no more illegal defense.

    Can people please stop saying "hand checking" when they simultaneously stopped illegal defense.

    And it isn't just about zone defenses...it's about no more illegal defense rules. JVG just loves all that.
     
  8. ItsMyFault

    ItsMyFault Contributing Member

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    Don't see anything wrong with what he said. You can make that case that the Heat are more talented than the 96-98 Bulls. I can also see the argument for it being equal talent too. I don't see an argument however for the them being more talented than the Heat.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIA/2013.html

    I don't agree with him about LeBron being an average player in that era. That's pretty foolish, and I'm sure he said that out of frustration. But I do agree with him about the Bulls smacking the Heat. They were a smarter team. Triangle offense > Miami's offense. Defensively both teams would be similar as a team, but the Bulls had better individual defenders.
     
  9. Jontro

    Jontro Member

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    I know right? Rodman should stick to making awesome gifs.
     
  10. JMAD21

    JMAD21 Member

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    My point was that he contradicts himself pretty badly.

    How can the Heat, who's best player "would be average" in the 90's according to Rodman, be more talented than the consensus best team in the 90's?

    It's either one or the other lol. Can't be both average and most talented...
     
  11. Ynnis888

    Ynnis888 Member

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    Imagine Lebron playing against the Pistons. Lol
     
  12. crash5179

    crash5179 Contributing Member

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    I agree. There is a lot more talent in this seasons Heat team then the Rodman Bulls.

    Jordan, Pippen, Rodman & Kukoc (possibly) are the only Bulls players from the Rodman era who would make the Heat team IMO.

    Steve Kerr and Ron Harper were important pieces on those teams but where is the room for those guys? Your not going to value either of those guys over Ray Allen or Shane Battier. Kerr was a deadly 3 pt shooter so you could bring him off the bench behind Chalmers.

    Bill Wingington & Luc Longley were big lumbering duds, especially designed to pick up fouls.

    Chalmers / Steve Kerr / Norris Cole
    Jordan / Wade / Allen
    LeBron / Pippen / Battier / Kukoc
    Rodman / Udonis Haslem / Rashard Lewis
    Bosch / Chris Anderson

    If you mixed the Rodman Bulls and this seasons Heat that is how I see the team. Ron Harper could have made that team if you were talking about the Cavs / Clipper version of Ron Harper but not the Bulls version.
     
  13. ItsMyFault

    ItsMyFault Contributing Member

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    Yeah. I think he just said the average thing out of frustration for the MJ comparisons... but then again it is Dennis Rodman.
     
  14. youngshev03

    youngshev03 Member

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    Lebrons defense is severely overrated. Most people say he plays great D because of all the weak side block highlights. Truth is, he gets blown by on D all the time. See Paul George in the Indy series or Leonard from game 1 of the finals. Also, the man travels every time he goes to the basket and most of the time charges. The NBA is known for protecting it's product though. Since he's the "Best player in the league", it never gets called.
     
  15. VBG

    VBG Member

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    It's amazing how people just ignore how much smarter defenses are now. Especially with their help. Now that you can play a semi zone and load up your defenses.
     
  16. v3.0

    v3.0 Contributing Member

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    How is it a big difference when both brought up race? Rodman was as much wrong for his comments as Zeke. The only reason Zeke got called out for his was because he was the higher profile player at the time.
     
  17. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Fair point. But we are talking about LeBron as an individual player. Defensive schemes are often (albeit not always) are designed to stop individual players. Those players usually are the key to the whole team's offense.

    Offensive schemes, on the other hand, are designed to maximize not an individual but the whole team's offensive effectiveness.

    This is why I believe scouting helps stopping an individual player more than it helps an individual player thrive on offense. So it doesn't go equally both ways when it comes to adjusting for individuals rather than for teams.
     
  18. Blake

    Blake Contributing Member

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    Lucky enough to watch both eras. Lebron would still have dominated back then. Size, speed and skills...
     
  19. kaleidosky

    kaleidosky Your Tweety Bird dance just cost us a run

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    yes, agreed. Can see some of his general points.

    Mostly that we completely discount how unbelievably physical the game was on the perimeter. Having in credibly strong guys able to "guide" your body and push you around subtly, constantly...that prevents where you can go and what you can do.

    But more than that, compared to *absolutely* no contact on the perimeter?? SUCH an easier game. Especially for someone strong. 80's Jordan would dunk even more than he already did.
     
  20. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I can see some of his points, but mostly this is Oldman Rodman waling uphill both ways to school back in his day, and the kids today having it so easy.

    I think it's natural and normal. A player sees some things that players have easier now, and so it's easy to believe they couldn't have cut it at the time when that player played.

    The truth is that the rule changes aren't the fault of Lebron and he has the tools to have adapted to the game the way it was in the late 80's and early 90's.
     

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